On further reflection, after posting the previous note, I realized that we may have been talking apples and oranges (or notepads and corkboards)
As television producer I have been in meetings where sequences and scenes are built with 3 x 5 cards on a cork board or taped to a white board. So in that sense your model is correct, and collections is the right approach. That is also the model used by other screen play programs.
But as a writer I have always carried a notebook in my back pocket (an idea as I said in the previous post goes back at least to G. B. Shaw) and from my first one floppy laptop through all the laptops I have owned, I used one of the free form databases I mentioned to transfer ideas from the notepad in the back pocket to the laptop and then synch with my desktop. Now in the mobile era, I can skip the notepad and use either my iPad or Android to jot down notes (I have done this with Evernote until the Scrivener manual recommended Index card.)
So there are two different functions here. Sequence building (the corkboard) and idea generating (especially if you wake up at 3 am with that great idea or the solution to a vexing problem in the project). Idea generating requires that individual cards be downloaded/uploaded/synched.
In the interest of positive feedback I must also say that I am a documentary film maker and writer always on the look-out for ways to keep my erratic note-taking organised (if a note was made over a week ago I can’t be sure I’ll be able to read my writing). I was stunned when I encountered MacWrite in 1982. Sheesh, how did I ever cope? I’m a latecomer to Scrivener which has created the possibility of a writing work flow that has changed my life, again.
I see what Robin is getting at: for a film maker Scrivener’s Corkboard View is the electronic equivalent of the 3x5 cards which can be rearranged and expanded to develop a script. I have Scrivener on my main computer at home and on my Laptop and I keep them in sync through Dropbox. Could life be any better?
Then I got the iPad which weighs 1/10th of my laptop and Index Card seemed to offer the same facility: it mimics Scrivener’s Corkboard View and it can be rearranged and expanded with notes on the back, etc. but it’s not a cut down version of Scrivener, it’s a different application which just looks the same and can be synchronised through Dropbox. Once you understand this, the problem goes away, you just have to do one or two additional steps to get them working together. Collections is one of the (many) things in Scrivener I’d never used before and it works a treat.
I’m sure that there are ways to make Scrivener-Dropbox-Index Card integrate more smoothly in the future and I’m sure you guys are working on it, but for now I’m a happy camper. Thanks a million.
First, apologies - I should know better than trying to explain or ask anything after a couple of glasses of wine, as everything always comes out wrong.
Robin - I wonder if there’s a misunderstanding about how collections work here? From what you write it almost sounds as though you are thinking of collections as though they are entirely discrete, whereas they are in fact nothing more than arbitrary collections of documents that already appear in the binder. You can put any document from the binder into a collection and thus sync it with Index Card. Anything you create on Index Card and bring back into a collection is also placed in the binder. You can move them into place either by locating them in the binder (or using Reveal in Binder from the collection view) and dragging them around, or by selecting them in the collection and dragging them to the binder tab so that the binder view opens ready for dropping them.
So, unless I misunderstand you, the sync with Index Card feature already allows you to sync the ideas you have jotted down in Index Card with your project, either new cards you’ve created or ones you have taken with you from the project for editing. And it’s all right there in the binder when you’ve done.
The only real drawback to any of this is that you have to decide in advance which cards from the project you want to take with you in Index Card. But this is inevitable as syncing the entirety of a large project to a long flat list in Index Card is unlikely to be desirable.
So, in short, you can already take whatever documents you want with you on Index Card and edit them, and create new ones in Index Card, and then sync them back to Scrivener. And if you have shuffled them into some sort of order that you want to keep in Index Card, it’s a quick, single drag and drop operation to have them all placed that way in the binder too.
I think I must be missing something because I still don’t quite understand the main problem you are having with this process.
Ian - many thanks! I’m glad it’s coming together for you. And yes as both Index Card and Scrivener evolve I’ll keep my mind open about ways they can work together. And one day off in future we may have our own iPad app, you never know - not that we’ve managed to start on that project yet!
Keith
Thanks for the reply.
Here is what I think you are missing in my posts.
Again noting that Index Card is a separate company, but the problem is not with work that originates in Scrivener, but ideas that originate on the iPad, especially that new idea that comes to you at 3 am and you pull the iPad from the bedside table and type it in. Which is better than writing it because I have heard countless tales of “I had this great idea at 3 am, wrote it down and now ( like Ian) I can’t read my writing in the morning.”
Unless I am doing something technically wrong and I have missed it in the manual, I can’t get my new ideas from my iPad which are not part of any collection on Scrivener on the desktop into Scrivener from said iPad.
Let’s take an analogy since I watched the Blu Ray of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows last night.
It is well known that J K Rowling would go to a coffee shop with a thick notebook, and scribble away the entire outline of the Harry Potter epic in that thick notepad while nursing one or two cups of coffee, since she was quite poor at the time.
So if there is another J K Rowling somewhere creating an outline for the next megahit, entirely on her/his iPad, and not downloading immediately, how would the new J K Rowling get all those ideas from the iPad into Scrivener??
But you can import new cards from Index Card into Scrivener - that is my whole point, so yes, you must be missing something I think.
The recommended way:
Create a new collection in your project and move any cards you might want to edit on Index Card in there. But you don’t have to edit those - you can just create new cards in Index Card.
Use the Sync > with Index Card feature to create an .indexcard file in Dropbox from the collection.
Open the .indexcard file in Index Card and create as many new cards as you want.
Back in Scrivener, use the Sync > with Index Card feature to bring in any changes and new cards. All the new cards you created will be added to the collection and the binder.
Or, if you are out and about on your iPad and have new ideas but didn’t create a collection for it in Scrivener, that’s fine too:
Create new cards in Index Card as you want.
Save your .indexcard file in Dropbox.
In Scrivener, create a new collection to receive the cards you created in Index Card.
Use Sync > with Index Card to open the new .indexcard file. You’ll get a warning telling you that it doesn’t seem to have been created from this collection, but that’s fine - as long as it consists of all new cards and nothing from other projects, you can ignore this warning and just click “OK”.
Ta-da - all the new cards are now in the collection and in the binder.
As you’ll note up-thread, Ian reported a bug with this second method whereby text doesn’t get imported properly, but titles and synopsis import fine (it’s just the notes from the back of index cards that might not come in), and the notes-to-text bug is fixed for the next update.
You may want to take a look at our tutorial video on our videos page:
Although David doesn’t show creating new cards in that video, he does clearly state that you can, and the process is the same regardless.
I hope that explains things - obviously the feature would be useless if it didn’t allow you to bring new cards into Scrivener, but I’m not sure what problems you have had in achieving this without more information.
Another note, hopefully to clear up any missed details we aren’t seeing, is that when Index Card sync generates new items, they will be organised in the Binder at the very bottom, within a special folder for the empty collection you used to grab the 3am ideas. If your Binder is huge, and the bottom of it does not appear on your screen, you might just need to scroll down a bit to find them. Alternatively you can use View/Reveal in Binder with the items selected in the newly synced collection, to just zoom right to them in the Binder.
One more thing; pardon if it was already addressed above as there was a lot to read, but you can export a delineated file (RTF included) from Scrivener. The compile pane you want is Separators. If you insert a custom string of characters into each of these, you’ll get a clear and easy to search for separator between every item in the binder which can be used to import into applications that support something like Scrivener’s Import and Split command. This isn’t going to help you with Index Card though; I don’t see any advantage at all to using a delineated file to communicate between these two programs, so I’m a bit confused why that is an issue with this particular topic.
Hmmm. To clarify the bug I reported about Syncing Index Card.
I’m working in the mode: jot down an idea in Index Card on the iPad and import the card(s) into a Scrivener project.
• I have set up a New Collection and synced it to the Index Card folder in Dropbox
• If I click on the Bar at the head of the New Collection menu I see all the Card icons with their titles and text as they were in Index card.
• If I click on one of the Card icons in the New Collection menu below the Bar I see the Title but the page is blank. If I open the Inspector, the card’s text appears in the Synopsis window.
I now want to get the text on the card into a document/scene in my project. I don’t seem to be able to drag from the Collection into the Script.
• If I return to the Binder I find a folder called “New Collection (unsorted)*”. I drag one of the cards into my screenplay as a new Scene, but there is no text on the page, just the Synopsis
• The only way I seem to be able to get the text onto the page for editing is to copy and paste it from the Synopsis, thus converting it from a “Card” to a “Document” (the icon changes)
Is this right, or am I missing a step?
• Dragging the Card from the New Collection folder in the Binder removes it from the “Unsorted” folder but not from the New Collection. This means that when I re-sync I get a duplicate of that Index Card.
Sorry to bang on about Index Card, but I see this process as a really useful extension of Scrivener. When you get around to integrating these two applications more closely I think the process needs to be a little more instinctive (it is a Mac after all!).
Right, all of that is correct. Index Card is for creating titles and synopses, so when you sync with Scrivener, the title and synopsis comes across. The synopsis is entirely separate to the main text in Scrivener. If you want the actual synopsis in the main text, you will have to copy it across. This isn’t a bug, but intended behaviour (I’m not sure why you would expect synopses to appear in the main text area?). If you want to add something to the main text area in Scrivener via Index Card, then you should add text to the back of the cards in Index Card (the notes area).
The “New Collection” folder in the binder is created for new cards that are added to the “New Collection” collection that have no obvious place to go in the binder. Moving them out of that does not move them out of the collection, as collections are entirely separate to the binder, but neither will it cause a duplicate when you re-sync. Once you sync, cards in the .indexcard file have internal Scrivener IDs assigned to them so that Scrivener can sync them properly in the future. You would only get duplicates if you are trying to work from multiple .indexcard files that you haven’t allowed Scrivener to add the necessary sync information to.
Again, I really recommend going through the video tutorial on this if you haven’t already:
Also, in the File > Sync > with Index Card panel, be sure to click on the purple question mark, as that explains the process thoroughly.
To me, if you’re having problems with duplicates and suchlike, it sounds as though you aren’t following the procedures explained in the documentation. The main thing to remember is to use one collection and one .indexcard file that is allowed to be updated by both programs.
It may also be worth refreshing your memory on how collections work if this is the source of confusion (remember that documents in collections are more like aliases).
OS really has nothing to do with it. You are syncing between two entirely different programs, as noted. And yet Index Card has titles and synopses and these get synced with titles and synopses in Scrivener, and the Index Card project and collection in Scrivener can be kept entirely in sync - I would argue that this is quite instinctive. The vast majority of feedback about how this works has been overwhelmingly positive.
The developer of Index Card and I spent a lot of time figuring out how we could get syncing to work between two essentially different systems, and we have a solution that allows you to edit any documents you wish in Index Card and add as many new cards as you like, and have them all synced back to Scrivener, and to sync back again. Yes, you have to follow certain procedures to get all of this working - all of which are well-documented - but that is to be expected.
Thanks Keith. That helps a lot. I would never have thought of using the back of the card for notes.
My lengthy narrative was in no way meant as a criticism, it was more of a reflection on my lack of computer literacy (eg. confusing ‘synopsis’ with ‘notes’). I love both programs, I just hate instructions.
Glad that helps. I know what you mean about instructions, this is just one of those unfortunate areas that need a few instructions in order to get the best out of it. Let me know if you have any more questions though.
One thing to note is that you need to tick the box in Scrivener’s Index Card sync pane to have it bring in the notes on the back of the cards (the bug relates to that), but that will be ticked by default in the next update.
Another thing you might consider, since it sounds like you’d prefer a Title+Text way of working, rather than Title+Synopsis with hidden and optional text, is to use Simplenote as your idea inbox. Simplenote sync works off of a central server, rather than using transit files, so adding a note to a project is merely a matter of firing up Simplenote on the iPad and naming the note with the appropriate project keyword in the title, wrapped in parentheses, like “This (Example)”. Either Simplenote or the Dropbox route via syncing with an external folder, and using a text editor on the iPad. The latter lets you avoid even specifying the project keyword in the title, since each project has its own sync folder (Simplenote is just one huge flat list, so it needs a little guidance).
The reason I love Scrivener is that it’s an application for writers made by people who can write.
I never click on those question marks because 90% of the time they’re either useless or opaque. This one turns out to be both clearly written and comprehensive. Maybe it’s something to do with living in Cornwall rather than San Francisco…
Glad you found it useful! I try to keep the purple question marks to a minimum - I think there are four in the entire interface, three for the three sync types, and one for Compile formats; areas I felt were unavoidably complex and so would need a bit of extra explanation even for those who prefer to steer clear of the manual. (I prefer diving into software myself, and for the most part try to refine things so that they are intuitive - that’s why these forums are so useful, because I get to see things through users’ eyes; if something comes up time and again as confusing, then I know it needs refining. Sync is a bit of a special case though as it involves other applications too.)
I finally got it to work to my satisfaction and tested a couple of work arounds for those 3 am ideas that you type on the iPad, so I will be purchasing Scrivener.
And like Ian, my aim is to make the program work better for writers.
That’s because those of us in ancient times who actually used cardboard 3x5 cards whether it was with quill pens or fountain pens or perhaps later a typewriter, actually made the notes on the front of the card, there were no synopses, just notes. Then those cards would have gone into a card file box and leafing through the box, you would look at the front of the card (same as when you went through 3x5 cards in a public library catalogue).
When I imported my notes from other programs and saw only the title and no notes (until I saw then note paper icon and clicked on it) I expected the notes to be on the “front” of the card.
Now I get this, but again this isn’t clear to the user and not intuitive. I would suggest an upgrade here. If there are no synopses, Scrivener should add at the least the first sentence of the note to a synopsis.
I too found this confusing initially but can live with it. I simply deleted cards which I considered complete from the collection since they were stored on Scrivener binder.
I am sorry to have to say that the documentation is somewhat confusing, I had to take what was suggested here on the Forum and reread the documentation a couple more times to understand what to do. And I have been rereading program documentation for decades.
I agree with Ian here. The integration should be seamless and the model here should be the thousands of plugins, filters and add on programs that integrate easily with Adobe Photoshop and Lightroom.
Keith I would urge you not to dismiss so quickly the programs that writers have been using for the past two decades. As I said, a good proportion of your customer base is going to come to Scrivener having used those programs for years and are used to the conventions I mentioned in previous posts.
The work around
The key is the fact with the Mac (and I would hope with the Windows version) you can drag and drop a card between binders.
Create a project called Ideas and a collection called Ideas or Ideacards. Synch with Indexcard to create the project on the iPad. Keep synching ideas as warranted. If you do create a new project for one of the new ideas, drag and drop those cards to the new binder and delete from Ideas. Synch the new project as needed.
Well, that is obviously my aim too (in fact, that’s my job!). And I use Scrivener extensively myself.
I disagree. This feature has been there for six months and this is the first time this has come up as an issue. Also, most people will have created synopses in Index Card, not notes. If you mean that Scrivener should add the first sentence of the text as a synopsis in Index Card, then that would be very confusing, because then, when you re-synced, you would have the first sentence as the synopsis in Scrivener, too. Back with 1.x, I used to have Scrivener automatically add synopses for all imported files made from their first lines. This led to no end of confusion - new users who didn’t like reading the tutorial first assumed that the synopsis area was an uneditable field used for showing the first lines of the text, and didn’t understand when it didn’t update or show anything for new documents. New users are no longer confused now that we no longer do this, and I don’t want to reintroduce that sort of confusion.
If you want synopses in the cards you take to Index Card, select the documents in the binder or collection and use the Documents > Auto-Generate Synopses feature.
That’s exactly the intention - if you no longer need to edit cards in Index Card, you can just remove them from the collection. This gives you complete control over what you take with you.
I’m sorry to hear that, but as you will see, Ian had the opposite reaction, as do most users. Between our documentation and the tutorial video, this is the first time this has come up as a real support issue. The only thing I can think of that would be a source of confusion is how you have to open the .indexcard file from Dropbox and suchlike, but we have no control over that.
If you read the more recent posts, you will see that Ian says he has got the feature working to his satisfaction now that he has been through the instructions. And to suggest that integration could be as seamless as Photoshop and Lightroom - two programs designed by Adobe from the ground-up, and developed over many years with integration in mind - is, I’m afraid, completely unrealistic; the situation just isn’t comparable. It’s more like saying that you expect a Microsoft Word document to sync seamlessly with iWeb - two different applications created by different companies, as in our case. You seem only to see the similarities between Index Card and Scrivener - they both have index cards with titles and synopses - and to be missing the vast differences in the sort of data they can store, the way they structure their projects and so on. As a user, it’s always - understandably - very easy to say, “These should sync seamlessly!” because you don’t have to consider the (very real) technical limitations, whereas, sadly, I do.
(I’ll skip your comments implying that professional writers coming to Scrivener will all want things to work the way you do, other than to say that’s not my experience and that we already have a lot of professional writers using it. )
Anyway, I think it’s clear that we’re not going to agree on this - you seem to think a much greater level of integration between entirely different programs is possible, whereas, forgive me for saying so, I have spent a lot of time working on this and am intimately aware of the file formats of both applications, their structures, and the limitations in moving data between them. As I say, if we ever develop our own iPad application, then such limitations certainly would be unnatural. If you were complaining that there were too many steps to get between two programs we have complete control over and which were designed to complement each other, it would be fair enough, but that’s not the case. As it is, all things considered, our Index Card sync is frankly very, very good and I stand by it.
I am glad you got things working, though. Hopefully as you continue to use it you will begin to see what I have been saying and realise that the sync process is actually much smoother than you initially thought.
The vast majority of feedback about how this works has been overwhelmingly positive.
or perhaps later a typewriter, actually made the notes on the front of the card, there were no synopses, just notes. Then those cards would have gone into a card file box and leafing through the box, you would look at the front of the card (same as when you went through 3x5 cards in a public library catalogue).