youtube.com/watch?v=4HMs0kkUvq8
I’m listening to Paul 
as I type this, and I can’t help thinking, “Is he a messiah/prophet?” Are we on the cusp of a global shift in priorities. I hope we are … it’s time we were.
Vic
Vic, buddy. You’re only supposed to read the articles on food and theatre reviews in the Guardian. They don’t expect you to take their political and economic content seriously. 
I do think that within the mess of his ideas he does make a small point with some merit, although I’m not convinced that it’s not done somewhat accidentally, and quite possibly without his noticing it.
But you’ve got to admire a guy who is using a talk about the fall of capitalism as a 1 hour 30 min advert for his latest book. I suspect capitalism has a bit of legs left in it after all.
I guess that all depends on what you think capitalism is and who is doing the accumulation of wealth. If capitalism is supposed to benefitting the laborers, well, it’s already dead. If capitalism is supposed to be benefitting the investors…no, I don’t see this mode moving away any time soon, not without a lot of blood being shed over a long time.
[quote=“pigfender”]
Vic, buddy. You’re only supposed to read the articles on food and theatre reviews in the Guardian. They don’t expect you to take their political and economic content seriously.
I do think that within the mess of his ideas he does make a small point with some merit,Bet that felt painful!! 
although I’m not convinced that it’s not done somewhat accidentally, and quite possibly without his noticing it. <–That will’ve eased your pain. He that giveth with one hand and taketh back with t’other’ll be forever known as th’indian giver
But you’ve got to admire a guy who is using a talk about the fall of capitalism as a 1 hour 30 min advert for his latest book. I suspect capitalism has a bit of leg demolishes your whole cynical argument. I have it on very good authority that Paul only agreed to do the program, as long as Zoe Williams sat next to him.
s left in it after all.
Anyway, I haven’t read t’book yet, so I can only repeat. "Is he a messiah/prophet[size=200]?[/size]"
Are we on the cusp of a global shift in priorities[size=200]?[/size] I hope we are … it’s time we were. 
/quote]
Well, he seems to have misunderstood what capitalism is. But his observations that the economy isn’t in perfect shape and that Greece are in trouble were bang on the money. Fantastic journalistic insight. 
Mr K,
Answered in order.
Yes
No
No
The reality is that “change” that folks think we need will never happen under any system. Not to suggest that there is ANY fault, but only as an illustration, did your generation not witness the only real attempts at change in the last several millennia (Cuba, USSR, SE Asia, South America, Middle East)? Look at how all that ended. Right back where it started.
In the end there will always be a minority rich and a majority poor. This is just the way it is. There is no hope.
The only equality in the universe is the ultimate one: we all die.
One of us is naive. I honestly hope it is me.
As a hairyarsed welder, but even more so, as The Grand Master of The Ancient and Noble Order of Hirsuitum Posterious Weldercusi … I’m always right. Even when I’m wrong … I’m right. But, even I hold that there is at least a 0.000001% +or- .5% chance that even I could be wrong. Being mindful of my own potential fallibility, I am wary of those who opine as though they were infallible. So you’ll understand if I ask you, If you, actually understand what Capitalism is? Is it possible that your perception of capitalism, may be different from someone viewing it from a slightly different perspective, and that each ones beliefs could be equally as valid or invalid as the other?
The ‘ultimate equality’ or the ultimate inequity … where one man dies peacefully in his sleep, warm and cosy, held in the arms of his wife and lover, or mistress, in his penthouse? Or, the other, where a man dies at the end of a noose, convicted of a crime of which he’s innocent, whilst the guilty party is his hangman, or the hangman’s masters? Or dies of hypothermia, curled up in a Chicago/Stockport doorway, sheltering under pieces of cardboard, in sub-zero temperature, because of austerity induced homelessness. Couldn’t happen? 
Don’t kid yourself. It can and does.
A myriad scenarios exist twixt, "…where one man dies peacefully in his sleep, and, "…It can and does. "Just as there are a myriad arguments extolling the virtues of unfettered Capitalism, or damning to Hell-n-back its patent iniquities and failures, so too, are there as many arguments for-and-against, the belief systems residing on t’other side of the divide. They require careful scrutiny. But to do that effectively, we need the courage to step out from our comfort zones, behind the edifice of our vested interests’.
Maybe Devin’s right, “Won’t happen anytime soon.”
Last night I finished reading Clive James’ book of poetry, Sentenced to life … a piteous plea for forgiveness, from those he hurt so deeply, with his multiple betrayals and infidelities … especially of his wife Prue Shaw. As far as I can fathom, her hurt is so deep, that she can’t forgive him, yet I desperately needed to hear that she had … still do … he’s not the same man, God help him. But, as Devin said, “Won’t happen anytime soon” Or … could it … will it? Why not?
Why can’t Paul Mason be a prophet … why not? Anyway, all prophecies require interpreting … don’t they?
I’m not opining as if I’m infallible. I’m opining as if someone else is fallible.
My definition of capitalism is right where the dictionary puts it:
As best as I can tell from the talk, Paul seems to be defining capitalism as free trade across national borders. Worse, he seems to be defining it as our current implementation of the principle of free movement of people and goods.
Capitalism is alive and well. Our current implementation of the principle of free movement of people and goods could potentially be about to undertake an evolutionary shift.
To answer your direct question, which I’ll paraphrase as “are all beliefs equally valid?”:
No, they’re not. Some people form their beliefs based on things that simply aren’t true. If I lived my life by the principle “few people die from their first heart attack so I’ll slow down then,” then I’d be wrong (whilst a ‘heart attack’ in the true medical sense is fatal only c.5% of the time, a ‘Sudden Cardiac Arrest’ is fatal 95% of the time, apparently). If someone lived their life by the principle “I value my current lifestyle over a longer life” then (assuming they genuinely believe that) that’s valid (possibly selfish, but valid). Both attitudes might have the same outcome, but one is based on a belief that is wrong and one is based on belief that is as valid as any other.
So, no, my comments here are not based on a different-but-equally-valid perspective. I’ve not actually shared a political perspective*. You’ve just assumed that I’d have a problem with his message.
-
- aside from a hilarious joke about the Guardian.
Whether there is such a thing as austerity induced homelessness is a topic for the pub rather than an internet forum on writing. As for wrongly convicted people being hanged by the guilty party… Does anywhere still hang people? Do they let other suspects handle the execution? You’re veering into hyperbole.
Is that the next step up from the SuperBole?
My poorly worded point on equality is that in the end our corporeal mass decays.
I do not kid myself about the injustices. I also do not kid myself about the fallacy that these injustices will ever change. As far back as you care to go, all the sentiments presented have existed. It never changes. The issue is HUMAN NATURE is the core of the problem.
Remember when the idea was that education would change human nature and address the injustices of the industrial revolution? We have the highest level of education now and … well there those injustices are, alive and stronger than ever.
If I’m naive, which I’m sure that I am, it is in my complete lack of hope that this will ever change. The elephant we have to eat (what story is that from). At one time I cared and then I realized that the folks who “led the movements” were the same as the folks we wanted to remove and that the new would be exactly the same as the old. No matter what system, what change, what leadership, it will always be an Animal Farm ending.
It will never change.
Is that the Concise OED?
Sounds like it. I sure I’m not being overly simplistic (as in dim witted), in saying that many, many better informed people than I, are of the opinion that capitalism has evolved into a much more sophisticated, multi-tentacled/faceted entity, embracing, among other things:[/i]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism <–this may enhance and reenforce your point, or may in some way validate mine.
As best as I can tell from the talk, Paul seems to be defining capitalism as free trade across national borders. Worse, he seems to be defining it as our current implementation of the principle of free movement of people and goods.
Capitalism is alive and well. Our current implementation of the principle of free movement of people and goods could potentially be about to undertake an evolutionary shift.
This you or Paul/
To answer your direct question, sounds like a politician on Question Time—> which I’ll paraphrase Why? as “are all beliefs equally valid?”: Which isn’t the question I asked.
No, they’re not. Some people form their beliefs based on things that simply aren’t true. If I lived my life by the principle “few people die from their first heart attack so I’ll slow down then,” then I’d be wrong (whilst a ‘heart attack’ in the true medical sense is fatal only c.5% of the time, a ‘Sudden Cardiac Arrest’ is fatal 95% of the time, apparently). If someone lived their life by the principle “I value my current lifestyle over a longer life” then (assuming they genuinely believe that) that’s valid (possibly selfish, but valid). Both attitudes might have the same outcome, but one is based on a belief that is wrong and one is based on belief that is as valid as any other.
So, no, my comments here are not based on a different-but-equally-valid perspective. Why not? I’ve not actually shared a political perspective*. You’ve just assumed that I’d have a problem with his message. I wonder why I did that? Could be the synapses again … or, it could be that I mistook your, if not derogatory, then jocular? or, less than empathetic comments as being indicative of having possibly, some small problem with, or slight divergence from the message’s content. Sorry.
By the way, I wasn’t ascribing your comments to any particular political affiliation.
-
- aside from a hilarious joke about the Guardian.
Whether there is such a thing as austerity induced homelessness is a topic for the pub rather than an internet forum on writing. An internet forum on writing is exactly the place we are at present discussing the relative merits, demerits of a book written by a man who has just returned from Greece, and seen at first hand, and spoken to and spent time with, the very people, for whom the knock on effects are, to put it politely, quite profound. As to whether:
which apart from anything else, I find patronising.
See bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22858944
theguardian.com/society/2015 … es-of.html
theguardian.com/commentisfre … ims-policy
austerity induced homelessness in uk ad nausium
The point being made below, Rog, is that, even something as apparently unambiguous as Jaysen’s statement is not as straight forward as it at first seems.
As for wrongly convicted people being hanged by the guilty party… Does anywhere still hang people? Do they let other suspects handle the execution? You’re veering into hyperbole.
Well not wanting to abandon the hyperbolic alt’gether, cos y’ never know, it may come in handy. Lets define ‘innocent’, let’s assume for that for the purposes of my argument, we run with innocent in the eyes of God, if not technically in the eyes of Man. Which isn’t to dismiss man’s laws totally. It doesn’t require recourse to Google to be painfully aware of the number of overtly and covertly oppressive regimes, around the planet, that wouldn’t think twice about seeing off a troublesome member of the opposition, or member of the band of courageous investigative journalist, probing to deeply into rumours of corruption amongst the supposedly impeccably behaved ruling elite, through a trumped up charge of this that or t’other, that carries the death penalty. N.Korea, Burma, China, Iran. etc., etc. Tyrannical, Dictatorial, or Oligarchical, take y’ pick. As for the executioner being the guilty party, well, if he’s knowingly, and willingly doing the bidding of the bent regime, then I think, that even you Rog, could stretch a point, ans run with that.
[/quote]
[/quote]
brainz.org/13-most-brutal-and-in … sed-today/
theguardian.com/world/2015/j … ernational
nytimes.com/2014/10/26/world … sed-today/
But I would still like to point out, that until I’ve actually read Paul’s book (and I will) I’ll have to reserve judgement as to whether it’s a load of old twaddle, or not, and if wheth or not he is a messiah/prophet.
We shall see … or will we"
Sine Metu
Vic
No need to worry about me. My “hopelessness” is actually quite relieving. Since I believe there is no hope for the change that brings justice, I no longer fight an unwinnable war. As depressing as it sounds, that’s the only logical way to survive.
Now, should there actually be something worth supporting with even a chance of success… I might support it. But the current crop of blind idealists have no chance. Which leads me back to the statement that one of us is naive. Just not sure who.
The simple joy of nested commentary forces me to respond! 
[/quote]
brainz.org/13-most-brutal-and-in … sed-today/
theguardian.com/world/2015/j … ernational
nytimes.com/2014/10/26/world … sed-today/
But I would still like to point out, that until I’ve actually read Paul’s book (and I will) I’ll have to reserve judgement as to whether it’s a load of old twaddle, or not, and if wheth or not he is a messiah/prophet.
He isn’t.
We shall see … or will we"
Sine Metu
Vic
[/quote]
But I would still like to point out, that until I’ve actually read Paul’s book (and I will) I’ll have to reserve judgement as to whether it’s a load of old twaddle, or not, and if wheth or not he is a messiah/prophet.
He isn’t. Wot?! 
Damnshitshittyshitshitdamndamndamn Just ‘ave t’ cancel my order then … shit!!
Ah well ‘So it goes’ … eh? … c’est la vie
Thanks f’ lettin’ me know, Rog.
Ta muchly
Vic
- I must get back to the UK.
- On that trip I need to find space in which significant amounts of adult beverage are freely available.
- I must then find a way to get both of into that space.
I believe the outcome would be a novel ready for immediate publication.
When you’ve read it, I’ll be very interested to hear what you think. (As far as I can make out from Paul’s lecture, when looking at the future he uses a combination of Kondratieff’s Long-Wave Theory and information economics to forecast that “This time it’s different”. I know little about information economics, but for various reasons I’ve looked at poor old Kondratieff’s theory in some detail. It’s highly plausible and very attractive to people like TV presenters, producers ( ), originators of Internet memes and others who don’t know a huge amount about economics and statistics but who can extrapolate from the theory to come up with all sorts of very appealing conclusions that may or may not be total bllcks - no one really knows because the historical statistics don’t exist.)
Thanks for the snort into me feckin coffee!! 
Fortunately there’s so much residual detritus on my keyboard, embedded between the keys, from food consumed thereat, a simple wipe with the hem of me cardigan will mop up the coffee.
I’ve given Amazon th’elbow for t’ timebein’, so I’m mountin’ a safari to Waterstones in Big Manchester, wearing a bandolier full of book tokens from my b’day last October. I think I’ will invest in Paul’s book. I’m compiling a list at the mo. I’ve got Prue Shaw’s Reading Dante: From Here to Eternity on it. I already have Clive’s translation. I’m gonna put them side by side … and hope … who knows eh? Taking pride of place on my chest of drawers, under Delacroix’s, Dante and Virgil in the Underworld 
along with various classics from that era. When Delacroix painted that, I think he had his tongue pressed firmly in his cheek. to put it politely.
Anyway, Hugh, thanks for the heads up about, Kondratieff’s Long-Wave Theory . Is he worth adding to my list
Take care
Vic
PS Actually, unless I’m very much mistaken, didn’t Paul make some fleeting reference to Piketty in his opening talk. If he’s moving in that kind of company while researching his book, maybe he’s not too head-in-clouds … eh?
I can make fleeting references to the Pope if that will help lend credence to my arguments. I’ll even include reference to Plato, Socrates, Aristotle and the Dread Pirate Roberts for good measure…
Listen pal,
You could say ,“xp[23[ior]mnbqv 2340iormv 2CWEPREKFMBMV ]2R0[29IRUNVQ2][34R009JBN\N0NRV2IR]V]R[P[AWIRNBQ234IRV2EKFPO092FIV”
and as long as you signed it ‘nom’, t would’t need added credence, cos you signature would lend all the credence it required.