Atlas Shrugged

I will answer you more fully tomorrow, and only address this part now. I only commented on the ignorance of this particular subject matter. No evaluation was made of intelligence, education, nor even of honesty. Everyone on this board could be astoundingly more intelligent than myself - possible - or the reverse, I do not know (except for that “Vonnegut sucks” guy - that was weak to the extreme). Some assumptions, within certain limits, can’t be easily broached on such a disconnect as an online forum discussion.

I only say this much. I know this particular subject very well. The interpretation and comparison to Hitler represents a total lack of knowledge about the subject matter; about Hitler/Nazism and Ayn Rand’s philosophy. Can one be totally mistaken, and/or ignorant on a subject and yet very intelligent and highly educated? You bet. Happens to me everyday.

So, I’ll just ignore this whole line of argument, which is not even an argument, but sarcasm.

I’m going to try to step away from Godwin’s Precipice (*) here, but this statement of Rand’s still describes a pretty ugly world to me. There’s also an inherent contradiction, in that happiness is an emotion, and therefore by definition not amenable to reason.

Katherine

  • Godwin’s Law holds that once Hitler is invoked in a discussion thread, rational conversation is over. Godwin’s Precipice is my own coinage for the point at which a thread teeters on the brink of succumbing to Godwin’s Law.

Mr Wizard I am pleased that you were able to detect the sarcasm in my previous post. It was not intended as an “argument” but as simple “we are all different so let’s all enjoy our differences” statement.

I expect that someone as seemingly intelligent as everyone here, excepting vic-k and I (that is sarcasm again), would recognize that opinions founded on “ignorance” can not be overturned with out providing facts that counter or eliminate the “ignorant” reasoning. The case of “ignorance” that you seem to be fighting is one of the facts surrounding Hitler. I do not believe the facts are being questioned by the 3 legged dog. I do not even believe a COMPARISON is being made outside of a personal reaction to one sentence.

If you want to argue against “ignorance” in this case you need to focus not on Hitler, but the idea that a person who is wholly committed to “not giving a rat’s backside” about mankind and will destroy whomever he feels to to meet his own ends is less dangerous than a psychopath who DOES care about at leas a small portion of mankind.

Again, I may be a simple minded person, but as I see it I might be able to fool the psychopath into leaving me alone, but the Galt man, I am fodder for the cannon of his whim and fancy.

I’m in complete agreement with you Katherine. I find Rand disturbing, not the least for her irrational certainty about the rationality of Objectivism. Her own words speak to that.

This post is by way of an acknowledgement of Bob`s post and and also of the point, I think, RTJK was making with: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum.

First, a spot of preamble, which, I think is relevant. Since 1999, Ive struggled ([i]relatively [/i]speaking), with what another poster to these forums, my good buddy Karen, describes as a broken brain. A condition known as ME. In my case, to a certain extent, it inhibits the absorption of data in any purposeful quantity. Its subsequent collating and processing can be a [i]bit[/i] of a stuggle Having said that, Im not brain dead, or stupid. So, please bear all three in mind.

RTJK,
Just like Hitler, I too love kids; dogs; water colours; oil paintings, indeed most of the trappings of culture, the virtues of which the Nazis extolled, and seemed to have purloined as proof positive that they were civilised. Where Hitler and I part company, is when it comes down to the racial identity of those kids.

I love dogs because I love animals, period. That includes Homo sapiens.

I have a very strong, but, somewhat frustrated creative streak. Consequently Im a sucker for any kind of creative endeavour that is a product of genuine talent (however primitive)> My taste in music is eclectic. Ill take Status Quo, alongside Callas, Johnny Cash or Mahler.
None of the above makes me a Superman, or entitles me to think I am.

Now, Bob.
Im going to post this, since I dont want you to think I havent taken on board your...comments, regarding my post. But! Given the points Ive made pertaining to my…limited abilities, in the cranium area, I would hate that my response be taken as a rant. So I have to try and be sensible in my response. Sensible, unfortunately, being another area I struggle with, but I`ll give it my best shot.

Be back shortly.
Do take care Bob.
Vic

Bob,
Well ignore the paradoxical-ish nature, of your disparaging dismissal of Jaysens post, because of its sarcastic elements. A generous concession, I feel, given the sarcastic and( some would say), offensive nature of your post, in response to mine. A post in which I did ‘not’ compare Rand`s pronouncements, via Galt, to those attributable to HItler, and his ilk. I made a comparison of their effect upon me. A not too subtle distinction I think.

I was about to say, ”I think Im one of the savages, she refers to. One of the precipitants of the strike.” That would be incorrect, because, I [i]know[/i] Im one! But! Ironically, one, who for most of his adult life, has proselytised the adoration of the reasoned and the rational, as being the only basis on which we act, if we`re to expect those actions to bear fruit.

But that isnt what she wants, is it Bob? She doesnt want hairy arsed welders in Colorado. She wants only those, whose reasoning abilities are on a more exalted plane: those deluded enough to believe the World really does owe them its existence. A different species almost.

Supermen and women Bob? Sound familiar?

I havent finished saying what I want to say. But Ill leave it here for now, because Im tired. Should you deign to respond, dont try walking me into a plausibility trap, by traipsing out a load of specious and spurious twaddle in justification of a belief system, that amounts to, at its very best, nothing more than Compassionless pragmatism. At its worst…I dread to think!

Take care Bob
Vic

Atlas Shrugged 2: one hour later (Bob the Angry Flower)

Of course, there’s most of Dickens.

And most famously, two examples by Orwell, both of which helped crystallise attitudes.

But here’s an alleged example of fiction influencing fact that might easily be overlooked: the Bond novels. In this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Man-Who-Saved-Britain/dp/0330442465/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228737946&sr=8-1) the author contended that Fleming’s palliative fantasy poured balm on Britain’s de-fanged post-war soul. Most reviewers seemed to accept there was some truth in the contention.

(Am I trying to distract attention from a fundamental yet possibly unresolvable debate about the Nature of Man, teetering on the edge of Godwin’s Precipice? Yes, possibly. :wink: )

WIthout liquor it would be the Planet of the Apes.
:slight_smile:

Then there’s Godwin’s First Rule Of General Eye Rolling And Annoyance At Sophomoric Philosophy , which simply replaces “Hitler” with “Atlas Shrugged.”

Well to toss a few wrenches in the discussion. :slight_smile:

Actually Hitler did NOT think like Rand in that he thought only of himself. Actually the total opposite.

In his warped since of thinking he wanted what he assumed was a “pure race”. A race he himself was not of. He wanted the best for this race and only had intentions of having this “perfect race” at the expense of all other races.

Hitler’s plan was to kill himself once he achieved this goal so no he didn’t put himself before the rest of mankind, he put his ideology and his “perfect race” as the achievement of those goals. In his warped infected STD brain he felt that all of us that were not 100% of aryan origin were trash and needed nothing more than to be discarded which included himself, his lover, his friends, and many in the Nazi party. His ideal world was one of peace without want, without war, without strive. A perfect utopia. He felt this could only be achieved if only one “pure” race occupied the planet so there would be no religious differences, no ideology differences, no racial differences, no differences at all.

In other words.

Hell.

The law of nature is Only The Strong Survive.

Myself I agree with the statement because I would never live my life in servitude of another man nor would I want a man to live in servitude to me. In doing so you create perpetual slavery and you strip what makes each person an individual away which leads to strife, aggression, and revolution.

The difference lies in our ability to feel compassion. To help one another through the struggles in life, to find ourselves working towards a goal that is bigger than each of us individually but rather being a part of something much greater. Where we stray is when we expect charity in place of hard work, where we demand fairness where fairness can never exist, where we do not work towards our own personal goals but rather envy those that achieve what we could not. We tear down what others have achieved instead of building our selves to a higher level and in doing so we take 1 step back for every 2 steps forward.

Hitler was infected and suffered from an STD which truly was rotting his brain, toss in his racism, his feelings of not feeling equal and top it off with a time frame that gave birth to a mad man and for the cool whip topping look at his oratory skills and motivation factor.

Hitler managed to kill over 1 Million people with as much regard as one would take out the trash for no other reason than to start a cleansing he convinced himself was the only way to world peace.

Stalin killed 10 million of his own people in order to preserve his own power standing and greed.

Hitler is famous for being a mad man. Stalin just gets a foot note in history.

Which person would people rather be identified with, Hitler or Stalin?

Yet Stalin was 10 times the monster BUT his reasoning was one everyone could identify with. He set his own goals, his power, his greed, above all else and used that power to protect his standing with a cold and calculating and rational thinking.

Hitler planned to kill himself and anyone else not of what he thought was a “pure blood”. Don’t have blond hair and blue eyes? Then you have no right to live.
And Hitler believed this so greatly that he put what he defined as “man” above his own self worth and planned to take his own life to fulfill that ideology.

People can identify with rational thinking. Many people have trouble identifying with what is deemed as madness.

Yet fanatics get more of the attention and influence the world more so than rational thinking people. Why? Simple Ration is normal. Fanatic is obsessive. When one is obsessed it becomes all consuming. Rationality is just expected from everyone yet is rarely achieved.

Obsession rules the mind and heart. Rationality is the discipline of obsession. Where a problem arises is when someone becomes unbalanced and one or the other reigns free. Sometimes with excellent contributions to the achievements of man kind. And sometimes the results are the biggest horrors we can never forget no matter how much time has passed.

In modern days you could say Stalin was a cold calculating killer where Hitler was fanatic with a dream of World Peace and a Vision of what he thought Utopia was. He was a fanatic that thought he had the key to forming the world into a perfect utopia. The only difference between hitler and modern days is now we see fanatic religious motivation more so than we see fanatic ideology motivation.

Man kind will always strive to perfect our abilities at healing, education, knowledge, and what we excell at better than any other animal…

Killing.

We have made an art out of killing. What is horrifying is not our ability to kill but rather our justification for it.

One could say we as a species are “obsessed” not with killing one another but rather carrying out a variation of what Hitler wanted, to remove all differences through violence and death to only leave us with like minded people who share the one vision of utopia or Heaven you could say.

What many people fail to see is that it is our differences that make life so wonderous and enjoyable and only by sharing our differences to we truly get to experience everything has to offer.

Utopia cannot be achieved by removing our differences.

It can only be achieved by accepting them and living with our differences.

Only in accepting what separates us can we find unity in a higher goal.

“It is not what we take with us in life that defines us but rather what we are able to let go of in our life that truly defines us as a person.”

“It is not our actions that define us but rather the intent behind those actions that gives truth to what where our motivation truly lies.”

Ok I am done with my long winded drawl…

Now where did I set my beer down at…

I spent a good hour this morning constructing a very nice response that got lost when I got booted off the forum server. So this one is going to be straight from the hip and then I am bowing out. In my experience it is almost universally futile to convince someone otherwise once they have concluded this interpretation of Rand. Whether they don’t want to change their mind, or I’m not that good at articulating the argument, I don’t know.

First the actions in Atlas Shrugged are not a blueprint on how to conduct oneself in a free or semi-free society, but of a country (and world) falling into dictatorship. Note that most of these actions play out in real life examples - Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany to name but two. The first things these types of governments usually lose are its best and brightest. Either they bolt from the country outright, or seek obscurity (usually invisibility from the government) within their country. This is a form of going on strike. A bunch of industrialists and like minded individuals hiding out in Colorado is no different here in principle - not at all.

Now Jaysen’s interpretation of Galt’s oath. First, there is no indication anywhere in that book in action nor in statement that Galt would destroy anyone that got in his way. Everything points to the exact opposite. Especially the following paragraph from his speech: page 1023 Hardcover 35th Anniversary Edition

And exact nature of the evil of initiating force is articulated for the following page and a half after this. So much for the view that you would be fodder for his whim and fancy. Maybe he would belittle you into destruction? I also don’t think there really is a psychopath that cares about a little portion of mankind.

I don’t know where you get the idea that Galt cares nothing about the world. Before he went on strike he had a career, friends, later on a love interest, the most important ingredients to a worldly existence.

The fact of the matter is Galt’s oath simply states that men are not the means of other men. That he lives for himself and his values; other people certainly count as his values, but he is not a means to their ends and they are not a means to his. That his life is his just as every other person’s life is theirs.

I fail to see the problem with a non-sacrificial view of human relationships.

Vic - K

If you weren’t comparing Rand’s pronouncements to Hitler’s what is the purpose of this sentence?

I know about the Nazi glorification of the Superman of Nietzche. So evidently it was more than just some causeless effect - no?

I don’t know why you would think there were no welders in Colorado (ass hair or no). There was a big ugly truck driver there, I don’t see why there couldn’t be a welder as well. There wasn’t like an inventory of all present there. This is entirely misses the point that is thoroughly laid out in the book that this is a matter of morality, not of elite intellect. Which is why there were people there that weren’t the titans of the world. Even Taggerts’s average secretary was welcome there.

This goes back to my first point that this wasn’t an ideal world she was presenting here. No more than was Orwell’s 1984. What do you mean she wouldn’t want you or the hairy-assed welder (btw, the hero of her first book The Fountainhead often worked as welder and quarry grunt and other labor intensive jobs) in Colorado? She didn’t want anyone to have to go anywhere.

Galt was certainly not one of the people that thought the world owed them an existence. You mean like a welfare recipient or something? Like they thought they deserved money without work or something? Where in the world is that in the book?

Rand didn’t want only people whose reasoning abilities were on a more exalted plane per se, but people who used and went by their reason of whatever caliber. But, those who chose not to use their reason, to paraphrase Galt, were not to be handed a gun to improve their lot.

I am sure I have changed no minds and didn’t expect to. That is really too bad because you are short changing yourselves of a truly great ethical system. But I’ll leave you with what I am sure you will view as a paradox as great as any of Zeno’s.

I thoroughly subscribe to Ayn Rand’s ethical system. I also give generously to childhood leukemia charities. Wrap your minds around that one!

You take care Vic!

Bob,

Thank you for a thoughtful, insightful and well reasoned response. Your points are taken and understood. I suspect that the only difference that we have is the “playing out” of this philosophy in the real world. It is this “playing out” that causes me concern.

In my part of the country this mentality is being used to justify actions which it would seem you disagree with. Think about the “it wasn’t my problem”, or “I don’t want to get involved” statements we here from bystanders and witnesses to crimes and atrocities. Things like mothers watching their adolescent children be abused. No one calling the police while a woman is raped. The individuals were not fearful. They were uninterested.

Again, I am not suggesting the character of Galt or even Rand supported these action or even provided justification for them. At least no more than Judea-Christian theology provides justification for the Protestant/Catholic conflicts, Christian/Muslim conflicts, of Jewish/Palestinian conflict. It is when these philosophies are extended by the adherent into unintended action that problems arise.

In my opinion the philosophy Rand provides is one of the most dangerous. It may not be dangerous as an ideal, but I fear it’s implementation.

Thanks for taking the time with your previous post.

Bob,
Why were you booted off the server?
Don`t disappear.
Take care Bob

PS: ‘Bob the wise’, Is a far easier individual to interact with, than 'Bob the Roman Legionnaires’ attack dog

One not mentioned that at least deserves an honorable mention.

Lord of the Flies.

Because I come to the forum via RSS feed, I always have to log in, and I get booted if I take more than a few minutes to write a response. If I want to write anything of length, I compose it first in TextEdit and then copy/paste. When you’re an RSS reader, you can’t escape the badinage of certain forum members, which may explain, if not excuse, my sometimes testy responses. By the way, I detest Ayn Rand and the so-called philosophy she concocted to privilege selfish greed. Not to mention the mockery of Frank Lloyd Wright and his ideas perpetuated by The Fountainhead.

Since my comment about objectivism set this all off, I feel obligated to flesh it out a bit.

I don’t brand everyone who likes Rand as a moral vacuum. But I do take umbrage with Rand herself and what she wanted to do, and I loathe the pure-free-market-with-no-government-meddling-and-no-social-welfare agenda which objectivism is often used to push. Objectivism, like most philosophies which attract a lot of attention, is fairly complex, made up of several different ideas combined into one world view. Few people really take on 100% of a philosophy they claim to adopt. Rather, they latch on to the bits of it which are in line with their values and they discard or minimise the other components of the philosophy as irrelevant or minor. I am sure if you rounded up 500 people who called themselves objectivists, they would have plenty to disagree on; and a good number of them would be very decent and caring people, and would say that the elements of objectivism which get me so riled up are simply irrelevant to what they feel is its main message.

Many people, I think, are attracted to objectivism because of the central importance of the individual and the sole responsibility for their own life and happiness. Many people find Rand empowering and positive in this way. My partner’s aunt, for example, is a gentle and caring woman who believes Atlas Shrugged is “full of interesting ideas” for this very reason. Many people have simply chosen to ignore the insidious bits of Rand’s ideas, and that’s fine.

The problems I personally have with Rand is that her philosophy was written as an argument for the moral supremacy of pure capitalism (read: no social safety net) as a way of organising society.
I do understand that her ideas were a knee-jerk reaction to the many problems of Soviet communism, and specifically the seizure of her family’s business by the state, but like most reactionaries she went too far in the other direction.

She went far beyond preaching the virtues of capitalism as a economic system: she believed capitalism is the means by which society locates the virtuous and worthy, and elevates them to deserved recognition and success. She saw capitalism as a society in which everyone has responsibility for their own success or failure, and thus she preferred it because she felt it encourages the primacy of the individual, and responsibility, and creativity and competition of rational minds. I believe that she is terribly incorrect about capitalism doing these things, and furthermore, even if it did, I feel it would still be a horrible way of running things - because when it comes down to it, I don’t agree that someone who is able to design complex and useful mechanical devices, for example, is inherently more worthy, or inherently deserving of a better standard of living, than someone who is very simple minded and earns their keep mowing lawns.

Now, I’m all for the celebration and support of brilliant minds: inventors, artists, teachers, doctors, philosophers, etc. But are these people more human, more important, more worthwhile to society than people who work serving drinks or babysitting children or herding cattle? I think that is a very dangerous idea. Not to mention, if money is how a capitalist society is supposed to reward the people it values, then it chafes that many of the most financially rewarding jobs in our society have rather low social utility (currency speculators, anyone?) and some of the least financially rewarding have the most social utility (teachers, artists, nurses, farmers).

Furthermore, if you think there is a capitalistic society in existence today which is a true meritocracy - where the people at the top all get there because of hard work and talent - then you are frankly kidding yourself. Capitalism rewards privilege and connections to a much greater extent than most people want to admit. For me the main problem with objectivism as it exists today is that it has been adopted by countless people who see it as a justification for a pure free market system in which everyone has to take care of themselves and nobody else, to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps as it were. And if they end up starving in a rotted out apartment in a slummy section of town, well then it’s because they chose that themselves, and society shouldn’t help them. Greenspan is a good example. Who, incidentally, has certainly proven recently how shoddy his judgement really is.

The reality is that society will always have people who, by Rand’s formula, contribute nothing, and yet need to be cared for. Those who are very mentally or physically ill, those who are simply lazy and don’t want to work, etc. What answer does Rand have for them? I don’t want to live in a society which could in good conscience fail to care for them.

What is more, Rand idealised a certain “type” of person (strong, intelligent, creative, ambitious, self-sufficient) by demonising another “type” of person (weak, timid, requiring care, unsure, jealous or insecure). The parts of objectivism which lead its adherents (who almost always identify themselves as the first type of person) to feel superior to others (who they often see as being the second type) are why objectivism is so often called dangerous. I know plenty of people who are insecure, timid, and lack ambition, and are wonderful, beautiful people who add much to the world.

I understand the appeal of celebrating individual freedom and creative potential, encouraging independent thinking and fostering responsibility for oneself and one’s actions, etc. Those things make sense to me. But the road on which Rand would take us leads to an ugly world indeed.

To me Rand’s expresses a more LAW OF NATURE approach.

SImply put, only the strong survive. It is up to you to survive if you don’t you die.

Functions in nature perfectly but as to it functioning in society it is extreme. Extreme because what separates us from animals is our compassion and our ability to reason.

But I do feel that a system that rewards laziness is self defeating, a system that wants total fairness and equality is a system that rewards the weak and punishes the strong. Socialism to me is a method of nothing but control and is one that is self defeating.

Capitalism to me reflects more closely to the ways of nature than any other system. We modify this to allow some forms of socialism based on our compassion. But sometimes because we create a buffer from the threat we further damage the motivation to make one move forward.

Example. Welfare. The concept is a compassionate idea. The reality is it has become all consuming for many and hinders many from being motivated from moving forward.

Compassion for criminals has gotten ridiculous. Many criminals eat better, get a free education, free gym membership, free cable tv, and other “luxuries” than many working families that struggle with poverty. The one thing the criminal gives up is their freedom. Is this rehabilitation or is this reward for bad behavior? Well is the threat of jail that fearful that crime is down or is crime on the rise?

If someone refuses to work and sits around the house being a drug addict is there a threat to make them stop and move forward with their lives? Not really. In fact many drug programs will offer even better drugs then they can get on the streets and this is all paid for by people who chose to actually work and pay taxes.

Is any system fair? No. Is there such thing as total fairness? Never. Should there be? No.
Imagine watching a sporting event where no one loses and everyone gets the smae amount of points not matter how well they perform. One team scores, award the points to both temas because that is the “fair” thing to do.

No the reality is that people are selfish. That is the primal driver to survive. The “survival instinct” you could say. If society went back completely to the laws of nature it would be a very aggressive and brutal society. SO instead we use our reasoning and our compassion to regulate society in a way that would be more “civil”.

In the end though people look out for themselves and their interests first and foremost and that will never change. That is why you can never have world peace, society without want, no crime. YOu cna;t because there has to be a balance and what balances people is threat.

Threat of losing your job. Threat of losing a loved one. Threat of losing your life. Threat of losing your freedom. Threat of starving, freezing, etc.

We are a society that although we preach compassion and civility we actually use Threats to govern and regulate society. It is the fear that motivates people to “do the right thing” more than compassion or civility.

An example. IF you had a child that was molested and you met the molester and the molester was a person who was strung out on drugs and didn’t want to work nor change his ways at all would you feel compassion and pity for him and try to help get off of drugs, give him a bed to sleep in, share your food with him, take the time to try to teach the errors in his ways and rehabilitate him

or

Would wish you could blow his brains out without fear of judgment or jail time? THe threat of losing everything and going to jail would be the only thing stopping you. Not your compassion but rather a Threat that was more harming to you than having to live with the horror of what he did to your child.

We humans talk and talk about nice things, glorious things, compassionate things, but in the end our first and foremost concerns our ourselves and our loved ones and friends. We put them in a class that gets a higher priority than others. We give them standing above a complete stranger, and yet when it happens in society the complaints of not being fair are loud and long.

You can only strive for and achieve a balance in life. Each person’s balance is different. Working together can achieve so much but I am working to achieve my own goals, if ours are similar I don not mind helping along the way but I am in it for me not for a noble idea that cannot be attained.

As for me well I may seem harsh but if I see a lazy person I feel no compassion. Sorry. Starve. I don’t care. If I see a person that DESERVES compassion then I will literally give them the shirt off my back. The first time someone demands my assistance because it is my “duty” I would walk away and let them starve. Compassion and charity is much different then perpetual slavery based on guilt.

Drug addict? No welfare, no assistance. Either sober up or die. Criminal. THe penalty should reflect the crime not reflect how much money their attorney can use to purchase compassion.

Frivolous lawsuits? Simple If the person suing loses they have to pay %25 of what they were asking to a social program.

Capitalism?
My opinion. I liked Greenspan. I think he did a great job. I find it odd that many people never complained about how he was making everyone money until the house of cards fell. Was it all Greenspans fault? No. But we blame him? Of course?

He was our best buddy as long as he was making US money. But when we lose OUR money in market we helped build we could never take responsiblity for that. Nope Blame someone else. It helps ela the wounds.

Should a 3rd grade art teacher make as much money as a Nuclear physicist?

Should a rookie police officer make as much as detective that has put in twenty years?

Should a 19 year old kid cooking fries in Burger King make as much money and have as much social standing as a Professor at a University?

Nope. Simply put the system that works best is very simple.

You are rewarded for your hard work and in doing so put yourself in a better position to protect yourself from threats. Better income = Better Options. Better house = lower crime, better car = better safety, better healthcare = better health, better education = better job, Better Job = Better Options for your family.

The list goes on and when one obtains that they have a better standing in society. Their words carry more weight. Their actions impact more people.

Now currenlty we have a system that is designed to PUNISH one who does better in ay situations.

Better Job = Higher Taxes. Better Healthcare = Higher Costs and illegibility for “free” services. Better income = No College assistance for your kids.

The harder you work the harder you will have to work to give MORE to social programs than one who doesn’t work and yet receives all the goodies society can throw at them for no other reason than laziness. Because if they worked harder they couldn’t get everything for free. The system rewards failure and forces success to have to have FURTHER increase their success extensively in order to receive what is theirs.

We each strive to get further ahead in life. We each use reasoning in our decisions. We each have met at least one worthless person in life. We each have felt some resentment towards worthlessness.

Its the law of nature pure and simple.

We we differ is using our compassion and reason to alter the natural urges and instead work together.

But never be fooled into thinking the world can b a utopia. Without some form of threat and fear what would stop us from ignoring reason and compassion and give into the primal urge to move forward at all costs?

THat would bring me back to

Lord of the Flies…

:slight_smile:

(What if Atlas Yawned instead of shrugging?)

That view of the world, and of human nature, Wock, is a shocking and saddening one to me. I feel the best thing to do is simply to agree to disagree.

It’s pretty funny to see a board full of writers touting the virtues of unrestrained capitalism.

Is Tom Clancy a better human being than Elie Wiesel? Objectivism says yes. In fact, Objectivism says that Tom Clancy is more virtuous than any writer who doesn’t make as much money as he does. Which I would guess includes pretty much everyone here. (Assuming J. K. Rowling isn’t present pseudonymously.)

But then, by this measure Tom Clancy himself is the pond scum that the average investment banker scrapes off his boots. And that’s even after the financial crisis.

Are you people sure you want to sign up for that?

Didn’t think so.

Katherine

There is always some restraint on capitalism. Capitalism with no restraint is just the law of nature with no compassion or reason, barbariasm. The fine line is where do you draw the line on the restraints on capitalism and when does capitalism become socialism or communism?

I myself think Tom Clancy is very successful and has made a huge impact on people. Enough impact that if he died it would be on the news, on the radio, on the lips of about everyone. He would be greatly missed.

Can anyone on this forum claim such an impact? Probably not. Does that make us less of anything? No.
Just means Tom Clancy’s hard work paid off for him. Isn’t that the success we would like for ourselves or our loved ones?

It is not how much money one makes that determines their impact on the world. It is what they are recognized for and remembered for which determines the impact. Capitalism is only a vehicle that is used to obtain that impact. It is not the reason for it. It allows the freedom to pursue ones dreams and to be responsible for our failures.

The more restraint the less freedom one has. The art is defining a line between restraint and freedom that allows as much pursuit of happiness without infringing too much on another person’s freedom to choose otherwise. We each have the same opportunity. It is how we pursue that opportunity that decides our success.