Dashes & Quotation Marks

I’ve developed a different scheme to Keith. When I review the draft one of the things I look for is incorrect quotation marks. TextEdit does odd things with quotes at the end of a line where it puts new characters after the quote even if the insertion point is before it (an issue I’ve reported to Apple) so I have to do this review anyway. Although if the experimental method override works then maybe Keith can program around this bug from Apple. The File > Import doesn’t mess with quotation marks in files created by other editors, which is another reason why I read all my material very carefully and check for straight not typographic quotation marks. (Hoping my need to use external editors will disappear when Scrivener for iOS is available as the straight quoted files get created on my iPad/iPhone.)

D’oh, that was a typo - I’ve fixed it in my post. It replaces open quotes with close quotes in this situation, of course.

Curly quotes are for typesetters.

–Greg

P.S. Given Scrivener’s governing philosophy, I should think the conceptually right place for Scrivener to handle typesetter’s quotes would be in Compile settings: Something like Transformations > Rich Text Conversions > “Smarten Straight Quotes”. I was surprised not to find such a function already there – vaguely thought I knew it to be there.

Nah, they’re for writers who want to see quotations or dialogue correctly demarcated in their text. Otherwise you’re typing minutes/seconds or degrees/seconds.

I do find that time seems to move in fits and starts when I use these simple marks and more often than not I am nautically discombobulated after a long bout at the keyboard. Mystery solved!!

gr

p.s. Suddenly it bothers me that my Mac keyboard shows what are clearly close quote characters on the (straight) quotes key. Now see what you people have done!

Better for the text to contain curly quotes, all of which can be straightened correctly 100% of the time, than to rely on an imperfect algorithm to correctly smarten straight quotes 99% of the time.

I had several minutes doubting whether I had understood the issue at all. Forgive me, but I’m glad it was typo. My sanity restored. Thank you. :blush:

You’ve got a deadline, but isn’t this really a problem for the production editor to flag when the MS goes for typesetting? (Or does your publisher expect typeset-ready copy and not give you page proofs?)

No typesetter is perfect. Case in point, I found a typo in a Neil Gaiman book yesterday. A major one.
I prefer to turn in something that is done to the best of my ability, which includes making sure I haven’t missed quotation marks or apostrophes, which is easy to do if using straight quotes versus smart ones.

With the above in mind, comma usage in your sig is “wrong” in UK English:

With the commas before the book titles, the suggestion is that the titles are parenthetical (and that the sentence would make sense without the extra info that the titles provide). But if the titles are taken out (as the commas suggest should be possible), the sentence loses its meaning:

In UK English it would be either:

OR

The same as:
I saw the film Cinderella yesterday. (UK CORRECT)
I saw the film, Cinderella, yesterday. (UK INCORRECT, equates to: I saw the film yesterday.)
I saw a film yesterday. (UK CORRECT)

Is US English different?

While true in the UK, I don’t live in the UK. In the US, that is correct usage according to MLA guide of styles. :slight_smile:

I will admit to being confused by the animosity. Why argue semantics with me? I came here with a problem. Most folks wished to help. Does it matter why I want to fix something or whether my sig is correct in the UK?

I think it is the same in US English, though I catch myself making the mistake regularly!

I thought it was similar to sentences like this:
My best friend, Joe, arrived.

According to pretty much any style guide you name in the U.S., those commas are necessary in cases when you are re-naming as in Joe renaming best friend.

I take it that Briar’s point was that the comma usage in question is actually not like the above example. ‘My best friend’ already picks out your best friend, so the inclusion of the name is like a parenthetical extra. But ‘the bestselling fantasy’ does not really pick out a book (definite article notwithstanding), so the inclusion of the book name in that case is not just extra. Ditto for the other description.

Best
Greg

p.s. I was not reading Briar’s note as hostile, but rather meaning to assist in one of those little particulars that you would like to get right.

It’s entirely possible.
But it felt weird that in a conversation about apostrophes and quotation marks turned wrong, wanted to point out it was a job for typesetters so if I had a deadline, why bother? When I explained why, he then decided to point out possible errors in my signature.

Maybe the frustration of the week coupled with the deadline didn’t do well for my stress level, so I apologize for my temper. It felt troll-like rather than helpful. :confused:

That aside, Scrivener folks seem aware of the issue and looking into a fix. I’ll use the workarounds in the meantime.

Thanks, Greg. You are absolutely right about “I take it that Briar’s point was that the comma usage in question is actually not like the above example,” and “I was not reading Briar’s note as hostile, but rather meaning to assist in one of those little particulars that you would like to get right.”

The OP stated their aim as…

…and I was trying to help them to achieve that aim by tactfully pointing out a type of error that reflects on the author (more than the typesetter) and which impacts on meaning (rather than just typography); and one which might well have been repeated in their work.

UK and US English share the same rules for comma usage around restrictive and non-restrictive clauses. I tried to couch the point in a deferential and non-confrontational way, but that clearly backfired. The OP’s…

…is “wrong” in both US and UK English, although any author is free to break rules as they want. If kaonevar is happy with the “error”, that’s great. Her choice. If the same “error” occurs in her books, I assume her editor will suggest making changes…although any author should always have the final say in respect of their work.

When writing for US companies and agencies, I defer to the Chicago Manual of Style. CMOS gives a really simple example of the issue in question (while pointing out that lots of people get comma usage wrong around defining and non-defining relative clauses):

WRONG: “Astronaut, Neil Armstrong, waved to the crowd.”
RIGHT: “Astronaut Neil Armstrong waved to the crowd.”
chicagomanualofstyle.org/qan … tml?page=3

Similar to:
You should read the book The Catcher in the Rye.
Not:
You should read the book, The Catcher in the Rye.

Or:
This week, we are interviewing the author JK Rowling.
Not:
This week, we are interviewing the author, JK Rowling.

I felt and meant no animosity to the OP. From the start of the thread, I have only ever tried to help her. I am grateful to hear that you read and understood my post in the way it was intended.

To kaonevar, good luck with the novels.

I wrote a detailed and considered post at just before 2 a.m. UK time: the middle of the night, waiting for my cancer meds to kick in and give me the sanctuary of some sleep. (Not that you can possibly have known that.)

I’ve written over 900 posts on the forum, always trying to help other writers.

A former university lecturer (English and linguistics), I am now a well-established writer and editor, with readers and clients around the world, and a hard-earned reputation to uphold.

It’s never occurred to me to troll anyone (if you read my current sig, you might get a clue as to why).

I’m saddened by the thought that you took my post in a way that I never intended.

I’ll try to remember your user name and make sure that I don’t comment on your threads in the future. Really don’t want to cause you any angst, however inadvertently.

Good luck with your writing

Briar Kit

In the same way that I had no way of knowing you’d been up too late helping folks, etc., you had no way of knowing the stresses of my week outside my deadline.

I misread the situation, which can happen to anyone–especially on a forum where tone of voice is difficult to perceive. Most of the internet is full of trolls and if you look at my postage here, you’ll see I’m not on these forums often. I would’ve mentioned the error in PM rather than the thread (i.e. in public), so when it was posted, I figured it was troll-like because on most forums, that would be read that way by many (due to being off the original topic, etc.). I only say this so you can possibly see how I misread it. That being said, my apologies for doing so.

One of my degree’s is in English Lit./Composition, and I spent over a decade teaching before moving to writing full time. Even then, I don’t get everything perfect. No one does. That was a rule I was taught wrong and having the links to the CMOS and such was pretty helpful. Now that I have something specific to look at, I can learn from the experience.

I would hope that one misunderstanding wouldn’t sour you towards interacting with me on the forum in the future. I don’t intend to let it sour me toward you. As I said, these things happen online when we can’t really “hear” tone or understand someone’s true intentions when posting.

Dear Friends,

Group hug!!!

Best to you both,
Greg

Kum-ba-yah and such. :slight_smile: