Do people even read anymore?

Sorry but I was not here to offend anyone. And also sorry, I guess there are mainly Americans here on this forum, I was thinking it would take things from an international/global perspective.

And I am not talking about the educational effects of post-pandemic. This has been a thing for a decade now.

I also absolutely understand the effects of social barriers such as class on miniorities in any country. These certainly have impact on many things including access to good education.

Here, at least in Australia (very much a developed country), it has been a concerning issue:

And for your information, I am a high schooler
I am sorry to have offended anyone by my post, it was just a long thought that I decided to post.

That is not a doubt, though I was talking primarily on novels.

The Count of Monte Christo was first published as an 18 part serialization.

War and Peace was also first published as a serial, though Tolstoy extensively revised the manuscript between the serialization and the book. Even during Tolstoy’s lifetime, some Russian editions extracted the philosophical essays to an Appendix.

Can you still get it like that now?
But I do have to admit that I have the French and English combined for War and Peace (I mean not some parts, the whole book). I do have a full Russian version from my relatives. But I never could find it serialized as you mentioned.

I don’t know if we are primarily Americans – L&L is a UK company and we have users all over the world – but certainly the Americans are among the more opinionated forum participants.

For the future, though, you definitely might consider qualifying blanket statements like “there is almost no form of discipline in schools at all nowadays.”

I see

Certainly, ironically I said that under my current circumstances (I hope you get what I mean).

Every few years I come back to one of my favorite tales of weird fiction, Algernon Blackwood’s novella The Willows. When I read it again last week, the opening paragraph’s exemplary use of semicolons reminded me of this thread. Inspired by @Vincent_Vincent sharing Poe, here is the beginning of The Willows.


After leaving Vienna, and long before you come to Budapest, the Danube enters a region of singular loneliness and desolation, where its waters spread away on all sides regardless of a main channel, and the country becomes a swamp for miles upon miles, covered by a vast sea of low willow-bushes. On the big maps this deserted area is painted in a fluffy blue, growing fainter in color as it leaves the banks, and across it may be seen in large straggling letters the word Sumpfe, meaning marshes.

In high flood this great acreage of sand, shingle-beds, and willow-grown islands is almost topped by the water, but in normal seasons the bushes bend and rustle in the free winds, showing their silver leaves to the sunshine in an ever-moving plain of bewildering beauty. These willows never attain to the dignity of trees; they have no rigid trunks; they remain humble bushes, with rounded tops and soft outline, swaying on slender stems that answer to the least pressure of the wind; supple as grasses, and so continually shifting that they somehow give the impression that the entire plain is moving and alive. For the wind sends waves rising and falling over the whole surface, waves of leaves instead of waves of water, green swells like the sea, too, until the branches turn and lift, and then silvery white as their underside turns to the sun.

Happy to slip beyond the control of the stern banks, the Danube here wanders about at will among the intricate network of channels intersecting the islands everywhere with broad avenues down which the waters pour with a shouting sound; making whirlpools, eddies, and foaming rapids; tearing at the sandy banks; carrying away masses of shore and willow-clumps; and forming new islands innumerably which shift daily in size and shape and possess at best an impermanent life, since the flood-time obliterates their very existence.

Properly speaking, this fascinating part of the river’s life begins soon after leaving Pressburg, and we, in our Canadian canoe, with gipsy tent and frying-pan on board, reached it on the crest of a rising flood about mid-July. That very same morning, when the sky was reddening before sunrise, we had slipped swiftly through still-sleeping Vienna, leaving it a couple of hours later a mere patch of smoke against the blue hills of the Wienerwald on the horizon; we had breakfasted below Fischeramend under a grove of birch trees roaring in the wind; and had then swept on the tearing current past Orth, Hainburg, Petronell (the old Roman Carnuntum of Marcus Aurelius), and so under the frowning heights of Thelsen on a spur of the Carpathians, where the March steals in quietly from the left and the frontier is crossed between Austria and Hungary.

Racing along at twelve kilometers an hour soon took us well into Hungary, and the muddy waters—sure sign of flood—sent us aground on many a shingle-bed, and twisted us like a cork in many a sudden belching whirlpool before the towers of Pressburg (Hungarian, Poszony) showed against the sky; and then the canoe, leaping like a spirited horse, flew at top speed under the grey walls, negotiated safely the sunken chain of the Fliegende Brucke ferry, turned the corner sharply to the left, and plunged on yellow foam into the wilderness of islands, sandbanks, and swamp-land beyond—the land of the willows.

The change came suddenly, as when a series of bioscope pictures snaps down on the streets of a town and shifts without warning into the scenery of lake and forest. We entered the land of desolation on wings, and in less than half an hour there was neither boat nor fishing-hut nor red roof, nor any single sign of human habitation and civilization within sight. The sense of remoteness from the world of humankind, the utter isolation, the fascination of this singular world of willows, winds, and waters, instantly laid its spell upon us both, so that we allowed laughingly to one another that we ought by rights to have held some special kind of passport to admit us, and that we had, somewhat audaciously, come without asking leave into a separate little kingdom of wonder and magic—a kingdom that was reserved for the use of others who had a right to it, with everywhere unwritten warnings to trespassers for those who had the imagination to discover them.


These sentences from 1907 are perhaps too long for modern readers. But I love how he uses phrasing to reproduce the movement and motion of willows, river, and canoe. The transitions from semicolon to commas give a sense of increasing velocity. The semicolons start the flow at the beginning of paragraphs, then with the switch to commas the words come more quickly, tumbling one after another like the river.

Many weird tales involve the crossing of some boundary, one that must never be crossed. Some monstrous thing is entering our world, or we, with intention or through blunder enter into a world where we do not belong. The final paragraph points to this crossing, which the characters recognize and joke about. Soon enough they won’t be joking. :scream:

Best,
Jim

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The whole of the “problem” is there.
By today’s standards sentences are to be short.
But how to create depth, if we’re not “allowed” sentences that actually lead the reader anywhere?
If this above text is a good example of taking the reader by the hand, saying “follow me, I have a place I want to show you”, today’s sentences are more the likes of:
Look. This.
Look. That.
This one says this:
This one replies that:
And now see here as it resulted in [
]
=And so on and so on=

It is almost as if it is taken for granted that the reader would rather watch a movie.
But, as I said earlier, over decades and decades of that nonsense where you’d take a form of expression to strip it of its expressivity, people lost the ability to read it as it comes. In other words, anything that is not straight forward poses a challenge. (It is my belief that authors after authors tried (and perhaps too often successfully) to stand out for their easiness of reading. Call it fluidity – right
 But we are currently at the point where it went too far.)
→ Throw finesse in the mix, use the punctuation to suggest tone and rhythm, you will inevitably at some point (and much sooner than later) get the “it’s convoluted” comment. (Which to me is just a way someone has of saying “I don’t get it”, while posing as smart at the same time.)

Personally (and I have a hard time understanding how it could, or can, be any other way for anyone), I’d rather read a great book slow, than two bad ones fast.

Just to be clear: I am not saying that books written in short/immediate sentences are systematically bad. Not at all.
What I am saying is that it is unfortunately no longer – or almost – possible to go about it any other way.

image

Yeah, I truly regret writing that. It implies that Blackwood’s prose needs defending and that modern readers are somehow challenged relative to readers of the past, and I don’t believe either is true. ViktorSirin’s excellent post upthread perfectly states my view on the latter point.

Where have you seen guidance that sentences should be uniformly short? The usual advice I see regarding sentence length is that prose should be structured to support the effect the author is trying to achieve. Over the course of a story, that will result in shorter sentences and longer sentences, with the lengths varied to support the needs of the particular paragraph, scene, chapter, pacing, etc.

Is there someone out there seriously advocating we all write like Hemingway? If so, ignore them. :skull_and_crossbones:

In fact, Brooks Landon, with Building Great Sentences, has gone to the extreme of writing a technical book specifically about how to make sentences longer, while keeping them readable and understandable. His book studies examples of long sentences in fiction, shows why and how they work, and claims that, when done correctly, longer is better than shorter, based on his assumption “that longer sentences—and this is important—when carefully crafted and tightly controlled, are essential keys to great writing
Because a sentence containing more useful information, more specific detail, and more explanation will almost always be better than a shorter sentence that lacks that information, detail, and explanation.”

Landon is not suggesting that all a writer’s sentences be long, similar to how Strunk explicitly states that his rule “Omit needless words” does not mean a writer make all his sentences short. These guys are offering variations on the usual advice that prose should be carefully crafted to support the effect the author is trying to achieve.

Genre was mentioned a couple of times in this thread but never pursued, which is too bad, because I believe genre is key to this discussion of prose style.

To use an extreme example: If a writer is using Proust-style prose in a techno-thriller–well, yeah, they’re gonna get pushback. When a reader chooses to immerse themselves in a techno-thriller, they don’t expect to be confronted with long, complex sentences and paragraphs, and the writer of such shouldn’t be surprised if their prose is labeled “convoluted”. (Note that this doesn’t necessarily indicate that techno-thriller readers aren’t capable of parsing long complex prose; it just means that complex prose isn’t the right tool for the job, because grappling with prose isn’t why readers choose techno-thrillers.)

What genre? :innocent:

Best,
Jim

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This is true.

“A poor workman blames his tools.”

If your writing fails to convey the intended effect to the audience, there is a mismatch between the writing and the audience. As a writer, you can change the writing, find a different audience, or some combination of both. But readers are who they are and are unlikely to change.

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What is the workman supposed to do if he designs a table, then finds out people are sitting on it, all the while complaining his chairs suck for being too high?

Design chairs instead? Shorten his tables’ legs?
Right. Sure.
And that is exactly what I say has been going on for too long.
(I’m done with the topic.)

You do understand that there is a level on which the literacy problem is a result of deliberate policy? There are no great secrets to teaching people to read and write, but there is an institutional insistence in the west on being baffled by it all. For someone, somewhere, what you observe is a desired outcome. Someone who, in the US as an example, can create and enforce policies like No Child Left Behind or Race to the Top, both of which have achieved exactly the opposite of their stated aims, and both of which continue to dictate the fundamental procedures of public education.

This may not serve the purposes of the average citizen, but it is no accident.

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Unfortunately, there are many problems (economy for example) that are supposedly aided by policies as you mentioned. And I completely agree with you that most of the time, they actually make the problem even worse and it backfires. This is all intentional however. It is a pity but after all, an average citizen tends to follow the government’s agenda.

What amuses me is that foreigners believe that American education system and schooling is one of the best when it may be actually needing some good reformations in its system. This is a personal thought. But I don’t understand by what you mean by my observation as a desired outcome? What for?

Think of the reasoning behind the original push for mass literacy and public education in the US: a literate, informed populace is the foundation of a democracy. Now look at the results of public education in the US: semi-literates with no knowledge of history, geography, philosophy or even current events. That didn’t happen by accident. An ignorant populace is easier to manipulate.

Yes, I understand now. It is pretty unfortunate.

Half the people I know can’t read or write. They are not interested in society.

Have you read any David Foster Wallace? He does the opposite of catering to shortened attention spans and has achieved acclaim. Additionally, his interviews frequently touch on this issue and are so worth watching!

I do hear what you’re saying though, I just wonder if there isn’t rather more to the story
.