That leaves two questions: Who is supposed to distinguish between the two? They themselves?
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There’s certainly a conversation to be had about whether, say, medical training is toxic and harmful in a way that actually undermines patient care. And there’s the question of how much support should be available to students who come in with some sort of disadvantage.
But “pay someone/something else to do your thinking for you” is not the answer to any of those questions.
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To a large extent, yes. People have to be honest with themselves about whether a path is right for them.
That said, being overwhelmed doesn’t automatically mean someone isn’t capable. Sometimes it’s a reflection of workload, life circumstances, or competing responsibilities rather than ability.
For me, the important distinction is whether the help someone gets supports their learning or replaces it.
I agree. If the goal is to have someone else do the thinking, that’s a problem regardless of the field.
My point was more that discussions about workload, support systems, and student pressures are worth having on their own. Those issues may be real, even if outsourcing the learning process isn’t the right solution to them.
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Clearly you have your own goals with this topic, why not summarize them for us?
Not a flippant or satirical request either.
I’ve seen you answer back at almost every point posted by the entire thread at this point and I’m not sure I understand what you are in favor of, what you object to, and what constitutes a bridge too far.
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Fair question.
I’m not against these services in principle. I think it depends on how they’re used. Getting help with structure, feedback, editing, or managing a heavy workload is different from having someone else do the entire assignment.
My point has been that workload pressures are real, and it’s not surprising that students look for support. The line for me is whether the service is helping the student produce better work or replacing the student’s own work entirely.
This reminds of what a med student once told me: “The ‘A’ students become good researchers. The ‘B’ students become good doctors. And the ‘C’ students make a lot of money.”
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The cynical ex-academic in me thinks back to the system as it used to be (maybe still is in some places/disciplines) where the students did all the work and writing, but the book/paper was published in the Prof’s name or with him/her as lead author.
The students did the work; the prof got the kudos… outsourcing (once you’d attained the level)!
And during my time as a linguistics lecturer in London (in the 1990s), I did learn (later) that one “particularly bright” student, had outsourced his assignments to a friend/relative who was a linguistics lecturer at another institution in the UK.
There was another who was viva-ed particularly closely because we were convinced that he had outsourced his thesis to a linguistics academic elsewhere, but he had got himself thoroughly prepared and we couldn’t prove it.
Mark
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Ha, yes this totally!!! This also scales among Profs, so the department head may appear as the senior author on more junior faculties hard work (which is ultimately done by PhD students). Multi-level outsourcing…
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Interesting point. Outsourcing definitely isn’t new, judging by those examples. I think the real debate today is where people draw the line between getting support and having someone else do the work.
To go back to the start of this thread, I think a web site that explicitly advertises itself as a source of papers is well across the line.
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Well, coming in late to this, I think the salient point is “overloaded semesters.” What, precisely, does that mean? If you are suggesting that modern academic practice is overwhelming students that’s possible but I recall a 50-year-ago philosophy class (for majors) that required a ~10-page paper a week. We all groaned but we all produced them. So, if we’d had access to Claude et.al. would we have used it? Most would have, I expect. But the key for this discussion is whether the use was documented. If you’re writing about the civilization of the Renaisaance and you read something in Jacob Burckhardt you’d better cite it if you use it. That’s the current problem—it’s too easy to read an ai-spiffy-stew and just decide you’ll use it verbatim because it just appeared on your screen like magic and who’s gonna know?
On the other hand, let’s say you are an engine designer for F1 class racing cars. You are not going to design every molecule in that engine. Those guys over at Awesome-Turbines have something better than you could even dream-of so you use it and the ensemble of parts like that you’ve assembled win races. I doubt whether even the detail-obsessed racing press is going to document every last torx screw in the engine. So, you’re using without citation but does that detract from your achievement? Hm.
Dave
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I get what you’re saying. At the same time, I don’t think every service gets used the same way. A lot of people seem to be turning to them for editing, structure, or research support when deadlines all hit at once. The line definitely matters, but I think how people actually use these services is a bit more nuanced.
I don’t think the comparison to a philosophy class 50 years ago is entirely fair. Students today are often juggling full course loads, jobs, internships, and financial pressures at the same time. The workload isn’t just about the number of pages assigned.
On the AI point, I agree that transparency matters. But I also think there’s a tendency to treat any outside assistance as inherently suspect. In most fields, people use specialized tools and outside expertise to work more efficiently. Academia seems to be struggling with where to draw that line when the tool happens to involve writing.
I also think people look for ways to convince themselves that the thing they’re planning to do anyway is really okay.
I mean yes, “editing” could involve anything from a quick spelling and grammar check to completely reorganizing the entire manuscript from the ground up. A search engine is “research support.”
But I’m pretty sure the author knows the difference between “check this document for grammar errors” and “outline a three page essay about the use of Prussian blue in Japanese prints, proposing a thesis statement and identifying three supporting references for each element.”
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