Do you know any good zen story?

[Jaysen]

or married to a member of the +3. But then that qualifies as all the above.

[bobueland]

@Siren

I would suggest that anyone who does spend more than ten hours a day complaining must be clinically depressed

I of course do not mean that a normal person complains externally (that is to others) ten hours a day. But he does so internally. If you were able to observe a normal persons mind you would see that I’m telling the truth. So my conclusion is that normally the mind is a torture instrument. Only by stopping complaining and saying yes to whatever is happening right now can you escape the torture. By accepting I do not mean being a door mat but rather saying yes to what is without negative feelings and instead acting from suchness of this moment. So if the flight is late, you do not complain internally, but instead choose one of the thousand other possible things to do. Like starting to talk to a stranger (not about the flight being late or other complaints), reading a book, taking a walk, have a nice cup of coffee, visiting the Internet cafe, etc. In other words instead of complaining choose an activity to enjoy the very suchness of this unique moment that the universe have provided for you, whatever that moment happens to be.

[matt]

@bobueland

If you were able to observe a normal persons mind you would see that I’m telling the truth.

What a completely groundless statement. How do you know who a normal person is? And how do you know what she* is thinking?

What I find really fascinating is that you invented a load of statistics with absolutely no empirical proof, or for that matter even anecdotal evidence (aside from some imagined straw man), as some perfectly just-so evidence for your follow up theory that zen masters are carefree whereas the average pleb is not…

And then you were surprised when someone questioned it? And what’s worse, you then defended it on the grounds it is the truth. It has nothing to do with truth or lies, but is a simple case of bullshit (slate.com/id/2114268/).

Matt

• The astute among you will notice that I could have used singular they, and have no objection to doing so, but surely a normal person could only ever be female?**

** The even more astute among you will notice I have made a ridiculous statement based on generalizations and stereotypes that does not stand up to even the remotest scrutiny. But hey, isn’t that what this thread is for?

[vic-k]

@matt

but hey, isn’t that what this thread is for?

Of course.
Cheer up Ned
Vic
PS

How does bullshit differ from such precursors as humbug, poppycock, tommyrot, hooey, twaddle, balderdash, claptrap, palaver, hogwash, buncombe (or “bunk”), hokum, drivel, flapdoodle, bullpucky, and all the other pejoratives*

I do luv, 'flapdoodle nbullpucky"!! Those two`ll be whizzing around my empty cranium, all night, like flies around a dollop of kango plop!

[matt]

@vic-k

Cheer up Ned
Vic

I can’t, I used up my 2% of contented thoughts over breakfast this morning

[vic-k]

@matt

I can’t, I used up my 2% of contented thoughts over breakfast this morning

That`s OK! You can have some of mine. I never use it.
vic

[matt]

@vic-k

That`s OK! You can have some of mine. I never use it.
vic

Well see that’s where they are all disappearing at the moment… all this English hospitality at the bed and breakfast is causing me all sorts of grief for the rest of the day.

But if your country is willing to serve me breakfast and contented thoughts, you might never get rid of me.

And who are you going to direct all of your kangaroo taunts at then?

[bobueland]

@matt

What a completely groundless statement. How do you know … And how do you know…? you invented… absolutely no empirical proof … some imagined straw man… And what’s worse, you then defended it … a simple case of bullshit

A lot of complaints. q.e.d.

[vic-k]

@matt

you might never get rid of me.
And who are you going to direct all of your kangaroo taunts at then?

Dont worry your little head about that! We got rid of Ned Mk 1. We can always knock together some bit of draconian legislation to boot out Ned Mk2 :laughing: [size=50]unless, of course youre a Mach 1[/size]
Vic
PS ang on! wot dy mean...only you being taunted? Wot about Clangy-Bangy et al? You do realise, I hope, that the Antipodean Mob (Cane Toadies [i]Bufo marinus[/i]) now almost out number the other pests on board: Portlanders ( [i]bilge rattus rattus[/i]). Dont think y` special Ned.

Vic

[matt]

@bobueland

A lot of complaints. q.e.d.

I didn’t see any complaints. Just someone who disagrees with your point of view and the way you expressed it.

You have an opinion, and a pretty simplistic one at that: it is better to spend more time happy than to spend more time unhappy. Not exactly groundbreaking. You haven’t discovered some secret way of life that none of us simple folk have thought of. We are not all sitting in wonder of your zen-like achievement, waiting with palms outstretched for you to generously spread the word to us like a benevolent deity.

Oh to hell with it. I like complaining. It makes me happy. It frees up 64% of my day to concentrate on other things that also make me happy. Like alliteration, and the phrase benevolent deity. And walking barefoot in sand. And riding a bike downhill without a helmet. Like stepping on ants, and judging people by how indignant they try to look when they realise they stumbled onto the nudist beach by accident.

To paraphrase your argument: the key to happiness is to be happy.

Usually, when things don’t seem deep on the surface, it’s because they are not.

The very suchness of this unique moment that the universe has provided.

What nonsensical dribble.

If you want to construct a reasoned argument, construct a reasoned argument. If you want to drop lazy and boring homilies, drop lazy and boring homilies. What you appear to be doing is confusing the two, or perhaps simply not caring enough to make the distinction. Either way, it comes across as patronising.

Adding QED to the end of a sentence does not make it a reasoned argument. This is not a reasoned argument. QED.

[vic-k]

Ned,
Wot they feedin y in that place!
Take care
vic

[Jaysen]

Maybe he is missing his 'roo…

[bobueland]

When I think of zen masters I do not think of persons who confess to Zen Buddhism per se. I think more of persons who embody the true zen spirit in their lives. Here are a few that I think of: Buddha, Lao Tse, Jesus, Francis of Assisi, Henry David Thoreau, Benjamin Franklin, William Blake, Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Joseph Campbell and Eckhart Tolle. I’m sure there are lot of others but these are the ones that I’m familiar with.

[matt]

@bobueland

William Blake

Why does he make this list?

I have studied and liked his poetry, but I know next to nothing about his life.

[bobueland]

When we don’t live authentic life, some part of our life energy may be trapped. Trapped life energy has many names. Some call it the evil spirits, some call it the devil, while others others give it more esoteric names. For instance Eckhart Tolle calls it the pain-body. Tolle tells about his encounter with pain-body once when he visited a restaurant.

I sat down at a table and ordered a meal. There were a few other guests. At a nearby table, there was a middle-aged man in a wheelchair who was just finishing his meal. He glanced at me once, briefly but intensely. A few minutes passed. Suddenly he became restless, agitated, his body began twitching. The waiter came to take his plate. The man started arguing with him. “The food was no good. It was dreadful.”

“Then why did you eat it?” asked the waiter. And that really set him off. He started shouting, became abusive. Vile words were coming out of his mouth; intense, violent hatred filled the room. One could feel that energy entering the cells of one’s body looking for something to latch on to. Now he was shouting at the other guests too, …

The manager opened the door, “Just leave. Just leave.” The man zoomed out in his electric wheelchair, leaving everyone stunned. One minute later he returned. His pain-body wasn’t finished yet. It needed more. He pushed open the door with his wheelchair, shouting obscenities. A waitress tried to stop him from coming in. He put his chair in fast-forward and pinned her against the wall. Other guests jumped up and tried to pull him away. Shouting, screaming, pandemonium. A little later a policeman arrived, the man became quiet, was asked to leave and not return. The waitress fortunately was not hurt, except for bruises on her legs.

Another encounter with trapped life energy is in the form of the demon “Sticky Hair" as told by Joseph Campbell. This story has to do with one of the incarnations of the Buddha, two incarnations before his last one, when he was known as “Prince Five Weapons.”

The Buddha represents the Enlightened One within us, the one within us who has seen through the illusion of our separations and the illusion of our oppositions and conflicts. The Buddha knows – not just believes, but knows – that at bottom it is all one energy, it is all one reality. And here, in this story, he confronts a part of himself in the shape of a demon. So the future Buddha, as a young triumphant warrior who had learned how to use five weapons – thus his name, “Prince Five Weapons” – is riding home through the forest one day, when suddenly out of the forest comes a great big demon, an horrific monster,* by the name of “Sticky Hair.”

The future Buddha is threatened by this monster so he throws his javelin at him, but it sticks in the monster’s hair. Then he takes his bow and sends arrow after arrow at the demon, but they also stick in his hair. Then he hurls his discus at the monster. That sticks in his hair. Then he slashes at the monster with his sword. The sword sticks in his hair. He takes out his last weapon, his club. He strikes at the demon, but the club also sticks in his hair. Now he has used up all five of his weapons – all the normal means we use in trying to work through our problems and make our way in life – and he has only his body with which to fight. So this is getting rough now, pretty serious, and he’s in trouble. And so Prince Five Weapons hits Sticky Hair with his right fist; that sticks. He hits him with his left fist; that sticks. He kicks him with his right foot; that sticks. Then his left; and that, too, sticks. That leaves only his head, so he head-butts the sticky-haired monster, and now, of course, he is totally stuck.

The demon, who has the future Buddha totally tied up (as we all get tied up), says, “I’ll bet you’re scared now, aren’t you, boy?” But Prince Five Weapons, finally then, drawing from his religious insight, replies, “No, I’m not afraid, because I have within me a knowledge that will blow both of us to smithereens, and you’re afraid of that, but I’m not.” And at that the demon says, “Okay, and releases him.” Thus, the Buddha had conquered Sticky Hair.

But now what does the Buddha do? Does he destroy him, cast him away into outer darkness? Nothing of the sort. Instead he makes Sticky Hair the guardian and protector of that woods, just as the young man was to make the bottle of squeeze chocolate the protector of his aspiration to be a police officer. The future Buddha gives that demon a place, or recognizes the place he always had, and the monster becomes his protector. And what was the knowledge that the Buddha had that could conquer the demon? He had the knowledge that the demon was ultimately an illusion because it was part of a larger reality to which they both belonged. The Buddha had knowledge of this larger reality and identified with it, but this knowledge frightened the demon, because it meant the loss of the demon’s identity. So the Buddha saw through the demonic conflict to a deeper reality – a reality that included that conflict. He saw his own face in the face of the demon, and he saw the demon’s face in his own, and he saw both their faces together in a larger reality, a larger wholeness. Thus, the Buddha took the demon into himself, and the demon now served him, and together they served larger life.

[bobueland]

Some quotes by William Blake

I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans.

If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite.

Better murder an infant in its cradle than nurse an unacted desire.

Great things are done when men and mountains meet.

The difference between a bad artist and a good one is: the bad artist seems to copy a great deal; the good one really does.

The true method of knowledge is experiment.

To generalize is to be an idiot. To particularize is the alone distinction of merit. General knowledges are those knowledges that idiots possess.

What is now proved was once only imagined.

When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do.

Some quotes about Wiliam Blake

I have very little of Mr. Blake’s company. He is always in Paradise. (Blake’s wife).

William Blake is a harmless lunatic. (Blake’s contemporaries)

There is no doubt that this poor man was mad, but there is something in the madness of this man which interests me more than the sanity of Lord Byron and Walter Scott. (Wordsworth)

[matt]

But interestingly, William Blake was someone I would suggest did a bit of ‘complaining’ in his poetry… certainly London, and probably Holy Thursday and Garden of Love as well. I actually like all 3 poems (London and Garden of Love moreso) and agree with their sentiment, but they are mostly negative.

Also, from reading some other stuff he had written, he was certainly someone who bore some pretty heavy grudges against people, and he certainly couldn’t stomach what he regarded as stupidity in others.

[Jaysen]

I was thinking about Matt’s line “I like complaining” and my view of “consider, expect then prepare for the worst and life will only cheer you up”. I believe that these both align with a Zenish philosophy more than a suggestion that “to complain means that you are inherently unhappy”. Not being more than a casual observer of Zen philosophy I may be incorrect, but I believe the object of Zen is contentment not happiness in all conditions.

If that is correct, then the person who recognizes that their pessimistic, whiny, complaining, hyper-critical personality and then reconciles themselves with the understanding that this inherent trait is what makes them “unique” is actually more a Zen master then the one who suppresses these traits to [size=125]put on an air[/size] of artificial happiness.

Just a thought. I could be wrong.

[bobueland]

@Jaysen

If that is correct, then the person who recognizes that their pessimistic, whiny, complaining, hyper-critical personality and then reconciles themselves with the understanding that this inherent trait is what makes them “unique” is actually more a Zen master

Absolutely right!! The one who recognizes is aware. And being aware is not the first step but is alpha and omega. To be aware is often enough. For instance as soon as you become aware that you are behaving like a spoilt child, you stop that behavior. A zen master was once asked about the secret of zen and he answered with one single word: “Awareness”. Surely you can say more then that said the person who asked. The zen master replied: “Awareness, Awareness”.

[Jaysen]

@bobueland

Absolutely right!!

Not used to seeing that kind of response

@bobueland

The one who recognizes is aware. And being aware is not the first step but is alpha and omega. To be aware is often enough. For instance as soon as you become aware that you are behaving like a spoilt child, you stop that behavior.

I think you missed my point. If I “stop that behavior” then I am no longer me but some strained approximation of someone-else’s ideal of what I “should be”. I have become discontent with my present state and will be discontent in the contrived state that I “should be” striving to attain (note the word strive) as it is against my nature. To me this seems to be an Achilles heel for most pacifist philosophical mindsets. Why should I accept an internal war to avoid external conflict? The internal war will always do more damage than the external one (relative to the individual not society).

But then again what do I know?