Document Bookmarks of Text folders showing up in the Inspector Bookmarks

I just discovered a few dozen Text folders in my Project where there are Document Bookmarks for the Text folders in the Inspector Bookmarks that I don’t remember putting there.

Starting at the top of my Binder, I proceeded to delete all of the Document Bookmarks for Text folders in the Inspector Bookmarks. When I finished, I went back to the top of my Binder to check if I missed anything, and I discovered there were a few dozen NEW Document Bookmarks for Text folders in the Inspector Bookmarks that were NOT there before!!!

After I again proceeded to delete all of the Document Bookmarks for Text folders in the Inspector Bookmarks a second time, there were NO NEW Document Bookmarks for Text folders in the Inspector Bookmarks remaining.

Have NO idea what is happening. I’m wondering if I am reaching some sort of internal Scrivener threshold limit that I just crossed as my Project is now over 400+ pages with hundreds of references and over a hundred Folders/Text items, half a dozen bibliographies (one that is 40 pages), dozens of abbreviations and acronyms, hundreds of figures and dozens of tables, and 10 index pages. A pretty large project …

I’ve been working this Project for almost a year and a half but I’ve never noticed this behavior before.

There is also some other odd behavior that I’ve observed but I don’t know if any of it is connected.

Would like to hear if anyone else has experienced similar behavior with what appears to be errant Document Bookmarks appearing in the Inspector.

Is this a bug anyone else has observed? Or is it just something new that I need to learn about Scrivener?

Thanks for reading,
scrive
:thinking:

By default, when you link to an item, the item you linked from will be added to the target’s bookmark list. This builds up a handy list of back-links, but if you would prefer to have total control over the list, disable this (and probably also the image back-linking) in the Behaviors: Document Links settings tab.

So to confirm whether this is what is happening, go through the bookmark list and use the preview pane to see if there are any links pointing to this item. If that seems to be the general pattern, that’s probably all it is. Do note that if you subsequently delete the link, the back-link will not be removed, so the absence of a link doesn’t necessarily mean that is not how it got there originally, if that makes sense.

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Thank you for the feedback!

Apologies for my lack of familiarity, but could you provide detail on how to “go through the bookmark list and use the preview pane to see if there are any links pointing to this item.”

Thank you again,
scrive
:thinking:

The preview area is right below the document bookmarks list (if you don’t see it, maybe you collapsed it all the way?), so when you click on a bookmark, you’re viewing/editing that item it points to. Thus, if that bookmark was created by the software because of a link in that item, you should be able to see the link in the preview area.

But if it’s easier, just navigate to the bookmarked item and read it in the main editor or quick reference panel. I just find the preview easier when quickly going through bookmarks to see why they are listed.

Hi AmberV,

Thanks for your response.

I’m flummoxed at this point … perhaps I’ve spent too much time on the LaTeX side of my Project … is there a section/page in the Scrivener Reference Manual that describes what you are describing?

If I may, perhaps as a general comment to help those of us that are not familiar enough with Scrivener to know how to get to where we need to be, is there an expanded index of some sort that exists to give persons such as yourselves a way to point unfamiliar users such as myself to follow along on suggestions from those who are more familiar with Scrivener?

I’ve worked with Scrivener for many hours almost every day for the better part of two years, and I have yet to memorize all of the wonderful options that Scrivener has to offer and are detailed within the 900+ page Scrivener User Manual, much to my detriment.

My primary focus has to be on what I am writing, what to write and how to write it, so I don’t always spend as much time reading the 900+ page Scrivener User Manual as perhaps I should in my attempts to learn Scrivener. My apologies for not doing so.

Thank you again for all your assistance.
scrive
:thinking:

Section 10.3 in the Scrivener manual discusses Bookmarks in detail. Section 13.4 discusses the Bookmarks tab in the Inspector.

The backlink option specifically is a Scrivener-wide setting, in the Scrivener → Preferences → Behaviors → Document Links tab. It’s documented in Appendix B.4.2.

I use the manual’s sidebar Table of Contents in Preview constantly. Each chapter also has a more detailed Contents list, but I’ve found Preview’s Search command gets me to what I’m looking for faster.

It might help to show a screenshot of what you’re looking at, in that case. Because the question you posed is how you ended up with Document Bookmarks you don’t remember having created, and you seem now to be asking how to find the document bookmark list. Maybe we are not talking about the same thing.

Hi kewms and AmberV,

Thanks to both off you for your comments. Here is a screen shot that shows:

  • A Bookmark that repeats the title of the ‘Preface’ folder item
  • A Bookmark that repeats the title of the ‘The Flare Stack’ text item

In both cases, I do not remember creating either of the above mentioned Bookmarks, like so many other Bookmarks that were scattered through my Project. I’ve removed all of them in the latest version of my Project, and they do not appear to have returned (so far).

Perhaps I should have included the above graphic in with my initial query. My apologies for not doing so.

My query regarding the document bookmark list was in reference to kewms attempt to point me to where I might find an answer to my query as to why the errant Bookmarks were appearing.

I need to review kewms latest response to discern where I might find the answer.

Thank you for both of your responses to my query.
scrive
:thinking:

P.S. Question: Was the Scrivener User Manual written/published using LaTeX? If so, I may have a suggestion to improve the ‘accessibility’ of the next publication of the Scrivener User Manual, whenever that may be, for maladroit users such as myself who don’t read manuals enough, but still try to write. :tired_face: (You may already be aware of certain planned multi-year developments in LaTeX to improve the ‘accessibility’ of PDF documents created using LaTeX. If so, I apologize for sticking my nose where it’s not helpful.)

Okay yes, we are talking about the same thing. And unless you have the preview pane below the point of the screenshot, you may not be seeing it at all if you’ve fully collapsed it, as I mentioned before. Just move the mouse to the very bottom of the Bookmarks inspector tab, right above the label/status areas, where you should see a thicker than normal line. The mouse should change to a resize pointer, and you can drag it up (there is a snap area around 1.5cm tall to get past, before you’ll see anything).

My query regarding the document bookmark list was in reference to kewms attempt to point me to where I might find an answer to my query as to why the errant Bookmarks were appearing.

As I noted in my first response, the only mechanisms in Scrivener that would cause that are the act of creating hyperlinks or image links, and both forms of that can be disabled:

@amberv: By default, when you link to an item, the item you linked from will be added to the target’s bookmark list. This builds up a handy list of back-links, but if you would prefer to have total control over the list, disable this (and probably also the image back-linking) in the Behaviors: Document Links settings tab.

That incidentally does include linking to the same document, if you do that on accident. So for example if I create a hyperlink to “Red Book” from the text body area of “Red Book”, then I will get a bookmark pointing to “Red Book”. That scenario in and of itself doesn’t make any sense or have much utility, but neither does creating a hyperlink to the very document you’re looking at. So it’s one of those “garbage in / garbage out” issues in computing. :laughing:

It obviously makes much more sense if I create a link to “Black Book” from “Red Book”, and then later go into black book’s bookmark list and see an entry for “Red Book”. If I did not create that bookmark myself, then I know there is a cross-reference pointing to the document I’m looking at, from “Red Book”. If I don’t find that back-link to be terribly useful, I can delete it. That’s why we designed it that way, instead of a more typical dynamic back-linking system. You ultimately have control over what the inter-linking topology is within the project’s document bookmark lists.

If so, I may have a suggestion to improve the ‘accessibility’ of the next publication of the Scrivener User Manual, whenever that may be, for maladroit users such as myself who don’t read manuals enough, but still try to write.

Absolutely, if you have any suggestions let me know. I use the XeLaTeX engine, which will probably make a difference in any pointers you may have. I do also use MultiMarkdown to generate the vast majority of the syntax, so if it involves heavily overriding how images are inserted and so forth, it may be somewhat out of my hands.

Hi AmberV,

I’m not exactly sure this is what you are talking about, but the following is a screen shot of the same screen I posted in my last message, but with the line at the bottom section of the Bookmarks inspector tab resized to reveal what is there.

In this case, the only item there is for the command to display the epigraph:

  • (\dsplepigraph{1.20}{<$custom:Epigraph>})

which I don’t think has anything to do with the errant Bookmarks ‘Preface’ and ‘The Flare Stack’ which are shown above in the Bookmarks inspector tab. Please let me know if I am missing something.

BTW, I COMPLETELY agree that creating a Bookmark for “Red Book” back unto “Red Book” makes absolutely NO sense, and SOMETHING I would have NO reason to do. That is EXACTLY why I questioned the existence of such Bookmarks and posted my question to determine if anyone else had experienced the creation of such irrational Bookmarks.

I think we are now on the same page, but I don’t know if I am any closer to knowing how this happened. I will have to keep an eye out to see if or when this happens again. I will certainly let L&L know if it does.

NOW, onto the “planned multi-year developments in LaTeX to improve the ‘accessibility ’ of PDF documents created using LaTeX” I mentioned. (I only hope that this may offset some of the time and energy you and kewms have spent dealing with my issues, and again you and kewms may already be well aware of what I am about to mention. Please also be aware that I am NOT an expert in this area, but I wanted to at least bring it to your attention.)

There apparently is a move afoot to improve the ‘accessibility ’ of PDF documents created using LaTeX that I understand involves the LaTeX ‘accessibility’ macro. Please be aware that this is apparently on ONGOING effort by the LaTeX community that may take years to fully implement, as outlined in the following document:

LaTeX News:Tagged PDF feasibility study published

Next, there is an excellent article in TUGboat summarizing what has, is, and what (hopefully) will happen in the ‘accessibility’ macro development, including (hopefully) a commitment by Adobe to dedicate resources to the effort:

LATEX Tagged PDF — A blueprint for a large project

Other documents on the topic including a LaTeX Guide put out by Michigan State University:

Creating Accessible LaTeX Documents

Note that the MSU Guide also documents the ‘axessibility’ LaTeX macro (as well as the ‘accessibility’ macro) “To make mathematical formulae accessible in you(r) LaTeX document”.

Lastly, GitHub is offering a “A package to experiment with tagging with pdflatex and lualatex” at:

A package to experiment with tagging with pdflatex and lualatex

From my reading, it is obvious that the LaTeX ‘accessibility’ macro is not yet ready for prime time, particularly for complex documents such as the Scrivener User Manual and documents dealing with mathematical formulas, a show stopper for many. You might, however, want to keep an eye out as work on the ‘accessibility’ macro progresses.

I plan to check out what possibilities there may be for use in my project, but the limitation on mathematical formulas at the present time will likely limit how useful the macro will be for me, but hopefully not for too long as development progresses. My guess is a lot may depend on what resources Adobe commits to the ‘accessibility’ macro project development.

I hope this offsets some of the time and energy you and kewms have spent on my issues.

Thank you again for all your help and assistance,
scrive
:thinking:

…which I don’t think has anything to do with the errant Bookmarks ‘Preface’ and ‘The Flare Stack’ which are shown above in the Bookmarks inspector tab. Please let me know if I am missing something.

Are you certain that “Preface”, whose icon shows that there is text content in the folder, does not contain the epigraph command as its text content? The lower half of the bookmarks pane is an editor for what you have selected above. That you can review or edit the text of items bookmarked to the current thing you are working on is a huge part of its power.

I think we are now on the same page, but I don’t know if I am any closer to knowing how this happened. I will have to keep an eye out to see if or when this happens again. I will certainly let L&L know if it does.

It’s probably going to keep happening over and over until you disable the two options I referred you to, though.

As for the accessibility links and commentary: thank you very much! I will bookmark these resources and keep tabs on them as time goes by! Accessibility is something important to me—in fact I even compile an alternate user manual that uses a colour design aimed at those with colour-blindness.

Hi AmberV,

Re review or editing, I agree completely!

FYI, the following is a screen shot of the same ‘Preface’ folder as in my last posting, but with ‘Preface’ highlighted in the Binder to show the text that is contained therein, along with the particular Preface Epigraph .

  • \dsplepigraph{1.20}{<$custom:Epigraph>}

The ‘\dsplepigraph’ text included in the ‘Preface’ happens to be the same as the ‘\dsplepigraph’ text included in “The Flare Stack”. The two ‘\dsplepigraph’ commands control two separate and distinct Epigraphs; one for the ‘Preface’ folder, another for the “The Flare Stack” text item. They are two different Epigraphs.

The following is a screen shot showing the Epigraph for the “The Flare Stack” text item:

As you can see, the Epigraph for the ‘Preface’ differs from the Epigraph for “The Flare Stack”; only the ‘\dsplepigraph’ commands

  • \dsplepigraph{1.20}{<$custom:Epigraph>}

are the same.

Regarding the reappearance of the rogue Bookmarks, I will leave the two options your referred me to as active for the time being as a control. If and when the rogue Bookmarks reappear, I will then switch the options off as way to confirm that the options you suggested are actually controlling whether the rogue Bookmarks reappear.

Regarding the accessibility links and commentary I provided, I hope you find those useful. It’s the LEAST I can do to return a fraction of the help you and the L&L team have provided as part of this issue, along with ALL of the advice I have received from the L&L team over the past year and a half.

I hope that the work on the LaTeX accessibility features comes to full fruition and proves useful when you prepare the subsequent version of the Scrivener User Manual, only next time with a full complement of accessibility features.

For my part, I was hoping to use the accessibility features not necessarily for the intended use, but as a way to declutter and reduce the footprint of a number of figures in my project that have extensive captions that not everyone will find useful or informative, but some users may want. The accessibility features may provide a simple way to make the added figure information easily available outside of the caption to those that are looking for more detail.

Thanks again for all your help,
scrive
:thinking:

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