Rejected again. This is standard behaviour in Cocoa controls. This is how it works in the outliner. This is how it works in any text control that is not a text view. If I changed anything, I would change the index card in the inspector to require you to use alt-return and alt-tab, to make it seem more like a Cocoa control, not the other way around.
I would suggest that most users are not bothered by this because they do not use returns or tabs in index cards. This is not really their intended purpose. They are supposed to be used for brief synopses. I really do not understand why you would want to enter tabs and returns in there - it would really mess up the way your synopses look in the outliner view, too. Longer notes like that should go in the notes area.
Since I’m getting used to rejection anyways, I might as well chime in and support Maria on this one. Oddly enough Iâ€™ve been avoiding this because I feel strongly about it â€” and weâ€™ve all seen what happens when I feel strongly about something. But here goes:
Cocoa shmocoa, you tard.
From a user’s point of view, an index card is an index card is an index card. Whether it’s on the corkboard or atop the inspector, it looks the same and should behave the same. And for some of us - especially those with larger monitors - a synopsis can certainly be fairly detailed and have more than one point, hence more than one paragraph; after all it’s a text field (Looks like moose. Smells like moose. Must be moose. – Boris Badenov.) I canâ€™t count the times this â€œfeatureâ€
Always the troublemakers, eh?
I fundamentally disagree on this, I am afraid. The corkboard is a Cocoa control. As such, its behaviour is consistent with all Cocoa controls. Honestly, if it didn’t work the way it does, I would have numerous users telling me that it is against the HIG.
At any rates, I can only repeat: the synopsis area is not intended to hold returns or tabs. It should hold a couple of sentences. The whole index card analogy is supposed to enforce that idea, really.
Anyway, like I say, this will not change. Sorry.
All the best,
OOOOoooooh there’s a HIG in the room. BOW YOUR HEADS!
I think those guys should watch Bullwinkle more. For a user, it’s not a “Control” it’s a CARD! It smells like a CARD!
Oh well, guess I’ll have to reprogram myself again; sigh mumble grumble—now where’s that screwdriv… mumble.
best back at you.
What he said.
(“I’m a guy. I’m a guy. I’m a GUY.” – Jack Lemmon, dressed as a girl, in Some Like It Hot.)
Some of these threads this morning – they need firetrucks.
INDEX CARDS ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR LONG TEXT! YOU DON’T NEED TO BE TABBING AND RETURNING AND WOTNOT!!!
Oh look. You made me shout. And I’ve been doing so well. But the fact remains that not a single person has given a good reason why you need to be tabbing and using return in these controls. Not to mention the fact that to me, hitting enter to end editing seems natural - because it is how I am used to ending editing in all controls. What else would you use? Escape? Well, you can use that now, but it’s not obvious because it isn’t standard across applications. Should I make you use the mouse to leave editing? No, because then you would flagellate me…
Oh you users are a fickle bunch. I say, “Hell with the HIG, sometimes you need to do things this way.” Users say: “No! You can’t do that! The HIG are holy!” I say: “Actually, I think the HIG really are right on this bit.” Users say, “Hell with the HIG, a card is a card is a guy is a lemon.” Or something.
You can’t please all of the users all of the time, so instead I will please myself.
Will. Not. Change. Won’t! (Did you hear the sound of my foot stamping.)
Right, I’m off to uncork some champagne now. Well, Cava, anyway.
This is what I’m saying!
– use enter to exit if you like. But keep return for returning. Who says they have to do the same thing? I’ve seen this. (Notebook or Notetaker maybe?) And whatever you do, you will never find me quoting the HIG bible. I’m not a true believer, just a real life user.
Anyways I will stop belaboring the point – but there is a point and not just the one on top of my head. I accept that you believe there is a technical reason not to put returns inside one of your controls. (Sure doesn’t look like a control) I guess it’s a religious thing, and who am I to questions people’s beliefs.
Enjoy your party,
This evening, I will be mostly hitting my head against my desk.
Goes well with Cava, in my experience.
Just to play devils’ advocate for a moment…
Cognitively speaking, most objects have affordances.
That is, objects or attributes of objects possess latent properties that are largely dependent on the interaction with an individual observer or actor.
For example, if a small child’s play table has a flat surface, looks solid and stable and is approximately the “right” height", an adult may use it as a step ladder or stool. Despite the intent of the designer for it to be used solely as a surface to support light, small objects only.
Because affordances are subjective, they are a key design issue. You must ask yourself, how might people use object x, given its properties? (Hence the "if it looks like a notecard…).
Affordances speak to usability as well as potential usability.
I would suggest that the resemblance to a blank note card or blank text field is an attribute that suggests to users that it can be used like a blank note card (without limitations).
You can read more about it in many of Donald Norman’s works such as “The Design of Everyday Things”. He has written great stuff about human and machine interaction.
Just to clarify: the corkboard is a control. I don’t know how others are defining controls here, but a table view is a control; an outline view is a control; and so on. These are part of the control subset of views in Cocoa. The corkboard is also a control - it is designed as one. It is also designed to be equivalent with the outline view.
What is amusing is that no matter how many times I have asked, not one user has answered the question: why are you inserting newlines and tabs in index cards? Doesn’t it look horrible when you view these synopses in the outliner?
Anyway, this is my last word on this topic. It ain’t gonna change.
My opinion: The only fault is that you can easily add carriage returns in the Inspector card. I mean, we are talking about an interface element that is intentionally constricted in size so as to promote brevity. These things go into table columns, tooltips, and other places where a full page of character synopsis and musings is going to look just dorky.
Okay. I am going to run off and hide in a bunker now.
I hope you did not go so far and hurt yourself? When I got up this morning, I realised that I started quite a discussion before going to bed / futon, sorry.
I see that Keith won’t change if he says so. What a pity. Like Eiron, I do not use the corkboard. I tried hard to do yesterday, but afterwards I was so puzzled that I even did not manage to navigate through the normal viewers any more without trouble.
Index cards should be short? What is wrong (except for the faulty English) with something like:
Expedition to Uzbekistan (1)
Overview of background
-----reasons to choose Uzbekistan
-----design of experiments
This is a short and easy to comprehend index card with several returns (opt-returns) and tabs (opt-tabs, written here as -----).
This is why it is not the behaviour in the main view is the behaviour that should be adjusted.
Forks, knives, tabs, carriage returns…
What about the big problems? Why the hell did you call it Scrivener anyway. What was that supposed to mean?
I’d prefer not to.
actually this user did:
And it certainly doesn’t look horrible to me. It looks functional. Each point has its own line- easy to see, easy to use.
Look I don’t want to be a pain or insist. I get it. It won’t change. Fine. It’s your program Keith. I just don’t think it’s such an idiotic request. Like my desire to see more cards simultaneously on the corkboard – which you have so well implemented – I just want to use the card the way I would use a real one - including having multiple lines and paragraphs. It turns out I can do that and will go on doing so. I’ll just have to get used to hitting option-return. I’ll live. Even I’m getting tired of this one.
Ah, a Melville fan! Poor Bartleby!
Okay, there really is no point my ever saying that it’s the last I’ll say, because it never is. Look: you can add returns. Use the alt key and hit return. I just don’t get the big deal, I guess. I’m used to using the alt key as a modifier in these cases as it is standard across Apple controls (and Windows controls, too, for that matter)…
I’ve finished the Cava now, so I guess I’m in a better mood (the answer is still “no”, though ).
Now, I may look at Eiron’s suggestion of having return act differently from enter, but then this would work differently from the outliner, and the outliner is controlled by Apple code, so then it would be inconsistent, so… uh. The alt (opt) key is your friend.
Incidentally, I don’t think Eiron ever said that he didn’t use the corkboard. I very much doubt that he did, given that he has made numerous suggestions for the corkboard (such as the multiple selection in the binder creating an arbitrary selection in the corkboard) that have been implemented and that Eiron has said he finds useful.