I've never spent so much for software I haven't bought yet

Honestly, you people are terrific!

I’ve been lurking for some time now after finding a reference to Scrivener on the net. Imagine my disappointment when I discovered that what might be the sharpest tool in my writer’s toolbox didn’t play with Windows.

I’ve considered trying a Mac before but the timing was always wrong: I needed a laptop but new Macs were due in only a month, or two, or three. Why should I buy something due to be replaced/improved, soon? I’ve too much data on my old PC and neither the time, patience (or knowledge) to transfer it to analogous Mac software.

This time the stars have aligned. My old HP notebook said goodbye in a rather spectacular Picasso-ing of its flat planes and squared corners, all accompanied by the piquant odor of hot plastic and burnt insulation.

I’ve heard the rumors of new macbooks on the horizon but I’ve also read KB’s account of his trials with a 1st edition mac, and numerous other people have warned me about problems with newly-minted Macs. So I’m going with the current de-bugged non-overheating, non-yellowing, MacBook. I guess I’m trading cutting-edge for reliability.

Ok, so I ordered the mid-range refurbished macbook from the Apple store. And I got the Apple Care, too. Thanks, AmberV, for that advice, you’ve insured that my son will have to go to a local university, instead of away to school. :wink:

I know that Leopard is coming out next month, probably, but I got a $100 discount on a new printer that I needed, so that took out the sting of buying a new OS next month.

If I save anymore money, I’ll have to switch our medical care to my uncle, the veterinarian.

Thanks to you all for providing a lot of information and good advice, to this lurker.

Sorry about any poor grammar or misspellings that may be in this message but we went out for Mexican food this evening and the margarita came in a goblet the size of a koi pond.

I’m sure I’ll be back soon with some really stupid questions. So hold back on that “there’s really no such thing as a stupid question” reply until you actually see my Q’s.

As I usually wind up saying, “So long and thanks for all the pish.”

Welcome to the Mac world! While it isn’t quite as bad as when a new version of Windows comes out, it often does pay to wait a bit. With anything as complicated as an operating system, there are many bugs lurking which either are deferred for marketing reasons, or simply are never noticed until several million people start using it. They usually get everything sorted out in a few weeks—the worst of them anyway. I plan on upgrading in November or December, as much as I want to try it now. :slight_smile:

Welcome to the forum nib. :smiley: Now… what were those directions to the Mexican restaurant? You know, the one with the goblets…

Depending on when during the month Leopard is released, you may end up eligible for a discount or free copy anyway. They did that with 10.4 for anyone who’d bought a new Mac within, I think, 3 weeks before it was released.

(I know yours was refurbished, but the principle should stand.)

Hello nib,
allow me to disabuse you of the notion, that: “There are no such things, as stupid questionsâ€

Thanks for the great feedback, nib - always nice to hear from people who have moved to the Mac because of Scrivener (Apple, are you listening? I need a commission!). Drop me a line at keith AT literatureandlatte dot com and I’ll give you a tiny discount (every penny helps, right?). :slight_smile:

Welcome to the World of Macintosh.

Once you go Mac you never go back.


Not quite true :slight_smile:

My desktops at home and work are still Macs, but (as mentioned months back) I recently replaced my laptop with a PC.

Why? Mac laptops are horrible (in my opinion, blah blah blah), and I am constantly frustrated with OS X: the inability to customize Aqua, the inconsistency of Cocoa/Carbon/X apps, the locking bugs in the G5 kernel, the way that UNIX apps never seem to “just work” like they do in FreeBSD or Linux.

I now have E17 running (part of a heavily customized Kubuntu install) on a 1.72-pound Toshiba R500. The thing feels like a binder and the user interface is light-years ahead of anything Apple has in the works. The Enlightenment crew always have been pretty cutting edge.

I miss DT/DA and Scrivener, but I can live without them. I have some back-burner projects to write that will sync DT and Scrivener to/from a Linux filesystem (then using something like Pinot for searches and some RTF editor for writing on the Linux box).

I’ll probably keep with Apple and OS X for my desktop machine, and would heartily recommend this to others.

As for the machine I do all of my work on, the one I carry with me everywhere, the machine I must be uber-productive on and that must feel like an extension of my mind and fingers … that has to be a PC. My brain doesn’t work the same as Steve Jobs’, and with Apple it’s his way or the highway.

BTW, keep up all the good work KB! I really do miss using Scrivener!

If you’re running a G5 laptop, there are several million Mac users who’d love to know where you got it… :wink:

I see people all the time buying Honda Civics because they are the easiest to customize. You can buy so many after market parts and retrofits it would make your head spin. I see people dumping many thousands of dollars into “customizing” their ride. But in the end what I mainly see on the road are a bunch of Civics covered in primer and bondo.

Now take a Mercedes. Built for comfort and reliablity. Not really customizable but really its not needed.

How many mercedes do you see on the road covered in primer and sporting cheap parts?

I guess it comes down to user preference. Some like to just get in and ride in style. Others like looking unique. But a mercedes has more value than a Customized civic and they tend to last longer.

You say “uber-productive” but I question that for one reason.

How can you be “Uber” if you are NOT using Scrivener for productivity 100% of the time?

Some people are willing to buy a MAC just to be able to use SCRIVENER.

That in itself speaks on how good the software is and how productive people find using it. I would take using Scrivener 100% of the time as “Uber Productive”. Anything else is just counter productive. :slight_smile:

Have you ever tried E17, Wock? Comparing it to a Civic isn’t quite fair. :slight_smile: Even E16 was a cutting edge interface for its day. It was doing OS X style stuff back in '97. If I ever went the Linux route again, which from time to time I do consider given the arguments for customisation over strict conformity, I would probably do so with an Apple laptop. Then I could, in theory, still run Scrivener through a parallels style interface, including many of the other apps I adore on OS X. The apps are really the only thing that keep me on this platform, honestly. There is no Scrivener for Linux, no Tinderbox. I’m not sure if you can still do that though. Back in the OS 9 days there was a way to run Mac applications in Linux if you were on Apple hardware.

Not to quarrel with your analogy, but you’d be better off recommending Toyota. According to Consumer Reports, Mercedes has a bad reputation among imports for break-down and high repair costs. That’s why they don’t get high ratings and have low resale value, according to CR.

Mercedes has tried to fight CR, but it has a reputation for fair, impartial, real-life testing. money.cnn.com/2006/11/17/autos/p … /index.htm

Sorry to go off-topic

This in the end is the reason that OSX has more value to an average end user than E17.

Another thing is ease of use and installation.

www4.get-e.org/E17_User_Guide/En … ges/3.html

Pop in your installation DVD and hold down C. Folow the prompts.

For the average user who does not have a lot of computer experience would be hard pressed understanding and installing Linux/E-17 Windows manager distribution. :slight_smile:

So for the average user who has little experience in advanced computer methods which OS would hold more value? Which would deliver the better experience?

Linux by far is a heavy duty OS and great for “power Users” but still it is limited by the applications and periphels that can be run on it.

A computer is just a tool in the end. A tool for specific purpose(s) to the end user. If you strip any OS down to its basic core and put it on a machine how productive would anyone be? That is where applications and periphels play the big role. :slight_smile:

A honda civic is not a bad car. Has a lot of nice features and is affordable to many people. Hence the comparison to E-17. Nice OS. Real pretty. Productive to a degree. But it is limited by the applications that it can run in the end. Hence it’s value is not as high as OSX.

Example. If Apple released the OSX code to OEMS to run on non-apple products (such as dell or compaq) which machines would sell more of?

The linux loaded machine or the OSX loaded machine?
Linux shines in the power user circles and high end workstations/servers but fails in the average commercial market because its overall experience and productivity for the average user is not as high. Linux has gained ground and is by far one of the best things out to date, cutting edge. But there are so many variations and flavors that it is mind numbing to the average user.

The reason I like Apple Hardware is for a few reasons.
(1) They make the hardware and OS so support for both is easier for the end user.
(2) I have more available software than any other platform (Because I can OSX, XP, UNIX, Linux where PCs and OEM PCs cannot run OSX)
(3) Better quality machine than a PC (Mercedes vs Honda).
(4) Scrivener is OSX only :slight_smile:

In the end it is user preference and what that user defines as the most productive platform for their needs.

I use Adobe CS3 extensively so of course I run it on a MAC and not a PC. OSX had postscript,PDF, color management support native where other OSs do not. Photoshop runs faster on Macs than on Windows hence more productivety.

And of course SCRIVENER :slight_smile:
Nothing like it on any other platform.

No I haven’t used the E-17 distribution. (reminds me of the BeOs). Truthfully because the customization and eye candy is really nice but its not the most efficent and productive OS for the applications I use everyday.

FWIW, my husband is a software engineer. His day job is system engineering for a major search engine company. He speaks Unix as well as I speak English.

Yet every single time he installs a new Unix distribution, it involves two days of cursing, swearing, and trying to find updated hardware drivers. It’s a great OS, but it’s just not ready for Joe Average User.


Apple machines are built by the same companies who build PC, so the quality is pretty much the same. I think the laptops are built by Asus at the moment, which explains why the Macbook Pro line look a lot like the Asus ‘G’ Series machines; they share the same chassis.

Good choice though; I have a few friends who bought Asus machines and they’re top notch.

MMm … that’s fair enough, but you’ve quoted a lot of stuff that matters to about 0.75% of the desktop computer users.

The inability to customise the UI - frankly, most folk really don’t care about that stuff. And those that do, usually have the kind of desktops that make it hard to hold onto your lunch.

The inconsistency of Carbon/Cocoa/X apps. Well I think Carbon/Cocoa apps are fairly consistent (not perfect mind), but again, there are really so few X apps that desktop users would be interested in, then it isn’t worth Apple’s time to make a better job of it really.

I have no idea what you mean by locking bugs in the G5 kernel. As far as I remember, the kernel is still a Mach hack of some description.

At the end of the day, Apple has to come up with an OS that is easy enough for consumers to use. Being able to customise the UI down to the pixel is a nice thing to be able to do, but the vast majority of folk use an OS to do stuff, not look at. It would be much better to provide an environment that is easy on the eye and easy on the brain, rather than spending time building in loads of customisation.

The Tosh certainly is a nice looking machine though …

It is the dilemna. I want to upgrade my laptop in the new year. I could get a Macbook Pro, but with the increasingly returning to the ‘lock-in’ strategy that nearly brought Apple to its ruin the last time Jobs was in charge, then I wonder if that would be the wisest thing to do.
Locking Linux users out of the iPod? Bricking unlocked phones?
I dunno. What if Jobs wakes up one morning and decides to send down a patch to knock out BootCamp?
That’s the problem.
No Mac, no Scrivener.
Buy a Mac, and face a possible future of forced upgrades and being told what I can and cannot run.

Yeah, I’m feelin’ real locked in with Scrivener… 8)

I didn’t actually say that Scrivener was the problem …


I made a vow to myself some years ago that I would never hear the name Toshiba without spitting:


“Tosh” is certainly a good abbreviation. I had a Toshiba Satellite and it was the worst machine I have ever owned. (Yes, my MacBook had issues, but at least Apple put them all right. And at least a year-and-a-half later I can still use it, which is more than I could say of the Toshiba.) In fact, it was so bad that I bought a laptop with a whole different OS on it after I’d had enough of it. So I suppose I have that to thank Toshiba for…

Anyway, that’s a little OT (mod’s privileges :slight_smile: ).


Hiya nib!!

Welcome to the world of Scriv!!!


by the way, where is nib?