Linux users please read

https://forum.literatureandlatte.com/t/linux-users-solution-for-bad-pdf-rendering/8669/1

Pending official word from L&L, I suggest Linux users refrain from posting about Scrivener on Linux / Wine. Apparently we may be exposing them to legal risk. :frowning:

As the originator of that post I would like to make the following clarifications:

  1. I am not affiliated with Literature and Latte. I am just a user that has been down that road before.
  2. Literature and Latte will hopefully express their position shortly.
  3. I personally fully support (and was contemplating) getting scrivener running under wine.
  4. This is in no way intended to disparage the Linux OS, it users, or the developers of wine. This is just a very murky legal area.

Darkhorse, if you have any questions please feel free to PM me. I would be happy to answer/explain anything that I can.

If I read the concern in the first post from the thread you linked correctly, and as long as my (though little) understanding of legal matters in software development goes, it’s not at all about posting about Scrivener for Linux.
It’s about not promoting or supporting any activities that lead to breaching licenses (of Wine, etc.). For example, if making Scrivener run on Linux would include having to hack into Wine in some way, ie. overcoming the standard interfaces Wine is making available to users and going “through the chimney instead of through the doors” to make Scrivener running on Wine, might be in breach with user license.
Which wouldn’t be much of a problem for a random anonymous user on the internet but could eventually in extreme case lead to legal problems to a company that would be supporting such activities.

Actually, it’s not WINE itself that would cause a problem, it’s random .dll files and other supporting libraries.

Consider, for instance, that in order to run Scrivener on Windows, you need to use a Microsoft C++ API library. This is not outside the realm of possibility.

Said library has its own EULA (which you end up agreeing to when you compile anything with it, or when you run a program that has it compiled in, as I understand it). A clause in that EULA may indicate that the library is only to be run on an Microsoft-certified operating system.

Thus, running Scrivener on Linux may be a violation of that EULA. (Or rather, running a binary of Scrivener compiled with that library may be).

Now, whether this is actually the case, that one of the library components of ScrivWin has such a clause–that is a completely different question.

I think the original comment was made to indicate that there may possibly be a potential EULA violation, and so we may want to be careful.

Personally, I don’t think it’s that big of an issue. Scrivener is a pretty niche application, and Linux-users a pretty niche subgroup of even that. And if there is an EULA violation, it’s a random library somewhere in the code, and not particularly obvious.

However, IANAL. And L&L may perhaps want to eventually take an official position on this. But for now, it feels like a lot of people are over-reacting.

That was exactly my point.

For the record I did contact L&L yesterday. I think they are too swamped with all the bugs to get around to responding right now.

I know. There just seemed to be some confusion over what EULA violations you were referring to, so I was attempting to clarify with more detail.

Gotta love American copyright law. They could put in a clause of one of these EULAs “must buy us a new car” and no one would realize it until all the court cases happened. :unamused:

I don’t think it’s over-reacting to err on the side of caution right now.

L&L never said they supported Linux. I don’t want them to be held responsible for legal issues brought about by the use of an operating system they don’t support. I don’t want them to be held responsible for hosting forums that could contain potentially illegal advice. They have not asked us to cease and desist, but they also have not given us permission to discuss Linux / Wine, and until they say it is all right…I am a guest here, and I don’t want to cause trouble for my hosts. :confused:

The solution is probably simple, as far as L&L goes. They probably have a provision in the EULA that stipulates which jurisdiction they can answer grievances in - and if they don’t have that just put it in.

Any installation by anyone should include agreement to bring any grievances in an English court. Yanks sometimes believe their law rules everywhere, but a Magistrate in London could conceivably shake a middle finger at any such suggestion. :laughing:

Sorry, not what you want to hear, but I will reply to this later. There’s somethings I need to consider first.
Lee

Yeah, it’s pretty hilarious to watch some people encountering the international Linux community for the first time. Just the concept of GMT seems to freak them out–what, it’s not daytime everywhere if it’s daytime here? :unamused: I can hear Eddie Izzard saying we think our laws rule everywhere because “we have a flag.”

I hope L&L will have an easy solution available to them. I certainly never meant to cause them any trouble.

darkhorse,

I don’t think that you have caused any trouble to worry about. Any trouble that exists can be mitigated quickly be L&L. That the Linux community is willing to hold off while L&L takes look at what they want to do speaks volumes about the integrity that you guys are bringing to the project. I’m sure that once everyone gets a chance to look it all over there will be a solution available that will work for everyone.

Lee, I’m so sorry this happened. I never in my wildest dreams thought we could be causing you any trouble. I’ve never run into this sort of issue in all my years of working with Linux.

I know the timing on this couldn’t be worse. You have your hands full with supporting the Windows beta. You never said you supported Linux, and it’s not your fault Linux users assumed we were welcome to share in the beta test. I think I can speak for the other Linux users in a general sense when I say we didn’t expect you to provide support for our platform. We were doing what we Linux users do, supporting each other. But we were on your forum doing it, and I’m sorry if that implied anything about L&L’s approval.

I had a grand time hunting down solutions for Scrivener-on-Wine. Being a Linux user, it never occurred to me that sharing my discoveries would cause such a problem–in our community, sharing information is such a habit that it’s second nature. I didn’t think any of the steps we took to get Scrivener running on Linux was in any way infringing on IP. If I’m in error, I certainly apologize for promoting something which might be illegal.

Bottom line is, I’m sorry for the hassle–particularly since it came at a time when you had so many irons already in the fire. I won’t post anything else regarding Scrivener and Linux until you say it’s all right. In the meantime, I hope you forgive us if our enthusiasm for Scrivener made trouble for you.

Thank you, Jaysen. And thanks for catching this issue before someone with IP rights did, and caused much more serious damage. I hope there will be a solution that isn’t too hard to implement. As I said in my post to Lee, this couldn’t have come at a worse time, when he and L&L are dealing with betas, tons of new users, lots of writers chomping at the bit for NaNoWriMo…and here come the Linux people, to inadvertently stir up issues about IP and other scary things. We try so hard to do no harm, and to do some good, and yet we add headaches. :blush:

Whenever I’ve posted anything with linux, I’ve tried keeping it off the bug hunt forums for a couple of reasons: 1.) it’s already too busy here and 2.) L&L have told me in the past that I shouldn’t expect any support (very reasonable.)

I’ve submitted an entry for Scrivener in the Wine AppDB, which is in the queue to be approved. It might be best for all involved to move technical discussions over there, so long as nobody from L&L minds.

Thanks for getting us in the Wine AppDB queue, garpu. :slight_smile: We can move the discussions over there, of course, but I hope we’ll be allowed to stay here. It’s the logical place to look for support for Scrivener, for one thing. I know people who are long-time Linux users will check out the AppDB, but newer users somehow don’t think to check Wine HQ a lot of the time. :laughing:

If we do move over to Wine HQ, will that alleviate L&L’s responsibility? I mean, it’s almost like if they know we’re using the software and they don’t hunt us down and tell us to stop it, that implies they approve. And while that’s ridiculous, a lot of outrageous things are happening in the IP / copyright world. Ubuntu users are always having to fight to keep BitTorrent alive so we can all get the latest distro on release day. Without torrents, we’d crash Canonical a lot more frequently.

ETA: I agree that we were probably getting underfoot on the bug hunt forum, but other people had posted there, and L&L hadn’t had time to sort things out and tell us where to go. Okay, that sounded wrong. :wink: Anyway, it’s true that we don’t belong on bug hunt, and like you, I never expected to get support. I just kinda wanted to hang around and give it.

Hi folks, interesting discussion.

And please don’t start apologizing - you folks have only been incredibly helpful on this forum. I’m just a little peeved that I haven’t had more chance to engage in more informal dialog with many of you strange folk :slight_smile:

I’m not sure about any of these legal aspects as I simply don’t have time right now to investigate this. However, I do personally think it’s a waste of time with all these emulator like tools trying to run Windows Scrivener on Linux when I can just compile a 100% pure LINUX build in 30 mins in QT. In fact, we debug in Linux as the debug tools are superior. However, I’m no Linux guru and feel completely inadequate when talking to many of these cliche bearded, cardigan wearing, and mental fountains of tech wisdom and acronyms. I always get looks of distain when I don’t get things explained first time.

Okay, damn it, I’m going to do it, with the following very serious caveat:
IT IS NOT AND MAYBE NEVER WILL BE SUPPORTED BY LITERATURE AND LATTE - WE SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY TO SUPPORT ANYTHING LIKE THIS RIGHT NOW.
HOWEVER, I’M NOT SAYING THAT WILL NEVER CHANGE BUT IT REMAINS UNLIKELY.

THERE IS NO SUPPORT - SO, DONT GO LOGGING BUGS ON THE FORUMS FOR LINUX - I can’t answer them. So when I do release a beta build tonight - you grizzly-techno-geeky LINUX folks are on you own - BUT IT WILL BE FUN NONE THE LESS. Hell, if you folks go gang busters I guess we could spin up a self-supporting Linux forum? I’ll have to look to our fearless leader Keith for that. But, don’t go hassling him right now as he’s flat out with 2.0 release.

P.S.
PDF will not work in Linux build. I’m tempted to create a plug-in architecture later that will allow you folks to sort this out for yourselves etc. But that is months away at this stage. LET’S TREAT THIS AN EXPERIMENT NOTHING ELSE.

Happy days!

Lee
P.P.S. If I’ve offended any Linux folks with references to beards and cardigans, then I certainly didn’t mean any harm - part of being an Aussie, is that we’re obligated by birth to give others sht and continually take the pss. Feel free to serve back.

Now, if that isn’t just pure [size=200]AWESOME[/size] I don’t know what is :slight_smile:

Eddy

:wink:

Lee, that’s fantastic news. You’re my hero! I would love to be able to use Scrivener natively on Linux, love to be free from worrying about bits of things from the Windows world causing nightmares.

Shame on the neckbeards for not being more welcoming and patient–but that’s just who they are, and they regularly snap at Linux users, too. :laughing: Most of us have learned when they’re showing their teeth, they WILL bite. (Some slow-witted Linux users might be missing a finger here and there.)

Please let us know where we can post annoyingly Linux-oriented discussions so we won’t be in your way. It would be so much easier if Linux people knew where to look for help. If it’s clear there’s someplace we belong, maybe we’ll free up a bit of space on the bug hunt forums. Other users got started posting there and I replied, and we did get mixed in with genuine bug reports–which you so do not need more of at the moment. :wink:

I promise faithfully not to bother Keith. Or you. Didn’t mean to in the first place, especially not during such an intense beta test for both Scrivener for Windows, and the new version for the Mac OS. We Linux users owe you some aspirin. Or better yet, some cookies.

I’ll look forward to installing the new Linux build whenever you have time to release it. Thank you so much for this! :smiley:

It is. It so totally is. Awesome with Awesome sprinkles on top, even. :smiley: