More Compile-time Formatting Options

Hi Keith, other devs,

I’ve been working a lot with Compiling a large and complex document recently, and have been having some headaches with it, and the headaches all boil down to one missing feature: The ability to specify the formatting for folders, documents, and subdocuments depending not only their position in the hierarchy, but also what type of object precedes them. For instance – if a document with subdocuments comes after, say, a folder, it should have one title prefix and suffix and should begin with a page break; if it comes after, say, a regular document, it should have another title format, and should be separated by a single return. I know this sounds odd – but to do what I want in a way that Scrivener will understand would, in my case, require creating some unnecessarily complex level structures to compensate for the lack of this. Since I can also envision other situations where functionality like this might come in handy, and since it seems a fairly natural (if a bit of an obscure) consequence of the freedom Scrivener allows when creating document structures, it seems like the natural sort of thing that you might want to think about including in later iterations of the software. I think it’s a fine-tuning-type of tool that writers with complicated structural needs, like me, would really appreciate having! :smiley:

–Andy

Andy,

I don’t speak for Keith or for L&L, so I’ve no idea how difficult this would be. But I’m having difficulty envisaging what type of structure you have that requires such a change that can’t be dealt with by the use of formatting levels. This is my fault, no doubt!

In any case, major changes like those won’t come quickly (understandably), so in the meantime, could you give a few more details – perhaps an example of the outline you’re after? – to see if anyone can make any suggestions that might reduce the headaches?

Regards

David

Well, here’s a good example. Say I have the following structure:

(Level 1) - Folder: “First Chapter Title”
(Level 2) - Document 1: “Scene 1”
(Level 3) - Subdocument 1: “Scene snippet a”
(Level 1) - Folder: “Second Chapter Title”
(Level 2) - Document 1: “Scene snippet b”
(Level 3) - Sub-Subdocument 1: “Paragraph x”

Now then. Let us say for the sake of argument that for some reason, I need “Scene 2” and “Paragraph x” to have completely different types of formatting, because they follow two different types of files. Currently, the way Scrivener is wired, I can’t do this, because they’re both Level 3 document objects. This is what I’m talking about – to have a document’s Compile formatting differ based upon the type of object it follows in the hierarchy. This seems like it would be a natural formatting feature that Scrivener currently lacks. So yeah, that’s what I meant.

Andy,

I’ve been playing around with your structure and I think you can get close to your outline using the inbuilt facilities.

Folders, documents groups and documents can all have independent settings – but they don’t have to and you can format any or all of the types identically if you want.

Say, for example, you create three levels of each type in Compile > All Options > Formatting: folder, document group and document.

Then, following your structure, assign the levels as follows:

Chapter 1: Level 1 Folder.
Document 1 Scene 1 - Level 2 Document Group.
SubDocument 1 Scene snippet a - Level 3 Document

Chapter 2: Level 1 Folder
Document 1 : Scene snippet 2 - Level 2 Folder
Sub-subdocument 1 : Para X - Level 3 Document

So Scene Snippets can be represented by either a Level 2 Document Group, or a Level 2 Folder, and you need to make sure their text and title formats and prefixes etc are identical, which you do in Compile > All Options > Formatting > Level Options.

So now when you print out, the Scene Snippets look exactly the same and you effectively have your method for different formats depending on whether this is a Scene first or a SubScene first chapter.

I think this can also work for the separators – as long as you ensure that the last file in a chapter is a document, not a folder, because that will trigger the page break.

Of course, I don’t know whether this will fit your real requirements, but at least it gives you something to experiment with…

Regards and I hope it helps a little.

David

Hey KB, have you been letting Ioa clone you? You should know better than that. Look at what happened when he started spawning clones of himself… and vic-k.

That’s a pretty cool solution, Keith! I’ll definitely give that a try – it might just do the trick I’ve been looking for. However, I still think it would be nice if, sometime in the future, the Compile preferences looked something like this (please forgive the horrid photoshop rush job):

At least, that’s the basic idea, here. True, it’s a complex solution to a rather “niche” problem, something not very many – but certainly some – users would want to have at the ready should they need it. (Again, sorry for the hatchet job I did on your GUI in photoshop :smiley: )

–Andy

P.S. – I’m sort of in the dark as to how to post images, and the board FAQ didn’t make it precisely clear what to do, so … yeah, winging it. :slight_smile:

Hurrah – I’ve been promoted to Keith…

Does that mean I’ve get to start being quff and grirky now?

But glad it helped a bit…

David (not Keith (not Kevin)… :smiley: )

Keep in mind that means you have to deal with Vic-k and the other members of his gang.

Sorry guys … I mistook you for Keith because he’s the one who usually always responds to my posts… and since I was recommending development stuff, I sort of wrongfully assumed it was him who was talking. THAT will teach me to actually read the byline on the posts, so as to give credit where credit is due. But seriously, it was a really good suggestion, and it did help!

Andy – no problem… I was just teasing…

Jaysen,

I live within 50 miles of the vic-K posse: like the peasants who till the fields on the slopes of Etna, one can become inured to the threat of slumbering giants…

May the gods help you.

Mr K and his … aberrations are much fun. If you ever have the option, there is an AMAZING non-book-store in Manchester. One Ryland Library (library.manchester.ac.uk/). It is worth the trip just to experience what a library could be.

Indeed - I’ve been to said Bastion Of Civilization Against The Philistine Hordes Who Are Intent On Degrading Public Life, but a while ago now.

And I have a book from there out on Inter-non-book-store loan as we type. Form and Fabric: Studies in Rome’s Material Past in Honour of B.R.Hartley, since you didn’t ask…

Oh the envy!

Per the librarian here, the largest quantity of inner-library-loans are … get this … DVD. Very few books. Lots of movies.

But we digress.

Not “Fly-fishing” by J.R. Hartley, then? (Sorry, you have to quite old to get that one …)

The actress who played the daughter in those ads was a student of mine at the University of Westminster round about that time, doing an MA in Linguistics. She was very good, particularly as a phonetician, and went on to become a colleague.

Does that make me “beyond quite old”?

Mark

She was rather nice, from what I recall – but it was the “old chap” himself who was really brilliant. And it is extraordinary when an ad actually results in someone writing the book that is featured in it, just so that it is actually available! Talk about creating demand. And even more extraordinary, they even recently issued a remake of the ad, brought up to date with a much younger and more hip “father” who mixes records, and it’s total rubbish. Always stick with the original, not the later vulgarisation.

Cheers, Martin.

Indeed – and I am old enough to get the reference… In fact, when I ordered the loan, I wondered whether the advert had been based on the estimable Professor Hartley in the first place. Probably not…

Vic-k has expressed a wish to one or two of the more nefarious members of his extended family, for his ashes to be surreptitiously sprinkled around the various chambers, niches, alcoves, and floors of Rylands Library. I won’t repeat the responses of those nefarious types, to his request, except to say that most contain alternative less salubrious surroundings for his final resting place.
Fluff

Oh, I say… I understood they’ve got quite a soft spot in mind for him…

The world famous Heaton Moor quicksands…

The other side of the Mersey Valley Mr b…Cheadle sewage works. Good enough, in my opinion.
Fluff