Note Blizzard

Yes… I suppose so, if you mean that the benefits may outweigh the challenges. At least, the benefits are the reason I’ve upgraded recently, the first time since version 4. But (apologies, this is a well-worn rant)… it is exceedingly frustrating at times. There seem to me to be many ways in which it could be somewhat easier to get to grips with and use, while maintaining its considerable power.

I’ve recently started experimenting using Notational Velocity as a front end, going via Simplenote into Tbx. It’s a slightly weird thing to do, sending data from one application on the desktop via the cloud to another on the same desktop, and of course as a channel it doesn’t carry the same weight of information as Twig, but it’s $80 cheaper :slight_smile: and may be sufficient for my purposes.

It is, and it isn’t. It’s a very “big” application, so you get what you pay for, and as enthusiasts will point out, the upgrade price will always bring you up-to-date at any point in the future and give you a year’s worth of improvements thereafter.

H

That’s probably true. It’s a little hard for me to see the forest after seven or eight years of using it. To me I’ve always felt that the harder parts of it are the parts that really couldn’t be easily simplified without sacrificing what those parts are. That would be the language for finding and processing data in agents and rules, and the template export engine. Agents do have a bit of a front-end for simple stuff, and it is a front-end that helps educate you since it builds the syntax as you use the interface, but to do anything more complex than some simple Booleans off of basic attributes, then you’ll need to dive in a bit and its gets intimidating pretty fast. In some ways, that aspect of Tb is no less complicated than learning a full programming language. Programmers will pick it up fast and run with it, but for everyone else that can be a crash course in a level of computing that is largely completely hidden.

The template language is a bit easier, especially for anyone that has ever worked with an in-place web publishing middle-language. Understanding functional keys embedded in static scaffolding is essential, and the keys are not too powerful or numerous, so it’s not too bad.

As for the rest, the stuff that could be done simpler, what did you have in mind? To my mind, most of it is a pretty standard, albeit powerful, outliner.

Twig still stumps me. I think it’s a great entry point to Tb and a wonderful way to quickly build information structures without all of the hassle. It has some good tools for one-word organising and then fleshing everything out into something that will be useful in Tb, you can even start in on building an agent structure while collecting information. It’s just so odd to me though, that they’ve seemingly decided to limit it to a Tb module at that price-point. At $80, it really ought to be a stand-alone application on par with DEVONnote, VoodooPad Pro, even Curio to an extent, etc. That would even make marketing sense to pitch into that genre with a more accessible price-point. If the Tb connexion were a power-export tool rather than the only tool, that would perhaps persuade people to purchase Tb once they understood the basics of what it can do for them—and Twig would be great at introducing the fundamentals.

But, I readily admit I haven’t played with it much. It might be worth it as an $80 attachment if it saved a significant quantity of time over a period of use.

It’s only expensive in the sense that Aperture is expensive. In other words, it is only expensive if you don’t really need it. :slight_smile: If you do, it will have paid for itself with increased efficiency within a fortnight.

I love Tinderbox and use it frequently for specific projects (as opposed to making it a home for all my notes). Hugh is right that it is frustrating at times, because it has so much power, but for most of us, I think, that power will remain untapped, because we don’t have the skill, inclination or time to master the techniques required. Nevertheless, there is still a lot you can do with Tinderbox even without going too far into the “deep end.” I wrote about this on my blog. Here’s the link to the first article, if you’re interested:

welcometosherwood.wordpress.com/ … tinderbox/

Steve

Nice blog posts, Steve. They were very helpful.

I have downloaded Tinderbox and decided to try it out on some &%€#! plot work I am doing. It looks very formidable indeed. (And the learning curve also seems quite steep. What is with that map view??).

It is, however, a far cry from the note taking software I was trying to describe. It seem so me that Tinderbox is basically a program for structuring data; and applications like Evernote, Journler and all those are basically for storing everything. And I want something in between. Yeah. I know, I probably can’t have it.

I guess I still don’t understand exactly what you’re looking for, but I do understand the frustration that note-taking, information managers never quite seem to live up to our hopes for what they might do.

As for Tinderbox, I don’t share your impression of it being a program for structuring data. I see it more as an application for interacting with notes and thoughts. Hopefully structure will be the end result, but Tinderbox is more about helping with the process of getting to the structure, of figuring it out. At least, that’s my feeling – and how I use it.

Steve

Well, I don’t blame you! I would love to explain it to you over a cup of coffee - but I suppose we are on opposite sides of the Atlantic so …

You are right and so am I :smiley: Tinderbox is certainly - from what I’ve seen so far - an application for interacting with notes and thoughts. And it is most certainly also a powerful structuring tool. The thing is that a tool like Tinderbox becomes more and more relevant the more data you are dealing with.

Man, I dunno. I’ve lost track of this :slight_smile:

Mission accomplished!

LOL!

Barfoed, have you looked at the eternal trinity of DevonThink/DevonNote (more stress on storage and retrieval than structuring), Eaglefiler (highly reliable), and Together (with a note-taking function), or the outlier Chronos Notes (once regarded by some as unreliable, but it has since replaced its database core)?

Ha! Rumbled! :slight_smile: Ioa, this for me falls under several categories. Obviously I’d try to improve usability, especially that of the application’s more complicated features (because I don’t need Tbx as an ordinary outliner - there are significantly less expensive alternatives).

How would I change what is? I’d go as far as I could to replace the use of language rules and commands with graphical tools. A multi-tab rules palette? A multi-level export drop-down? Complex, yes, tricky to conjure no doubt, but that’s what I believe ordinary users increasingly expect (one could add, ever since MS-DOS ceased to be the ruling paradigm - it’s difficult to accept an application these days that won’t work as expected because the user has typed one of a string of parentheses in the wrong place…).

How would I add new functionality? A simple front end in-basket that could be accessed even when Tinderbox is closed (but not at a price of $80) would be a start (because inspiration strikes when inspiration strikes). Again, that’s what ordinary users seem increasingly to expect of note-based applications and that’s the direction in which they appear to be going. I’d also look at other ways of mapping notes into structure (although I’m sure the developers are doing that already).

And I’d put a lot more effort into documentation, help, videos and tutorials, especially in the areas of use that lie beyond those of an ordinary outliner. Here as in many areas, Scrivener is showing the way; complexity doesn’t have to seem complicated.

However…

… I’m extremely reluctant to criticise too much, for several reasons. Tinderbox is a wondrous tool with huge capabilities; the new timeline feature is extremely clever, to name just one. I see signs that the developers are trying to make it more user-friendly – for example, with the new website design, Mark Bernstein’s call for suggestions for tutorials and case studies, and most particularly (despite the price) the development of Twig.

I may be the wrong sort of user for Tinderbox anyway, because I don’t use it every day. If I did, the large-ish time investment of learning it in detail would definitely be worthwhile. As I don’t use it every day, I sometimes find that between one session and the next I’ve forgotten much of what I’d previously learnt. Then I discover I’m “eating a meal at posh friends and not understanding that my table manners aren’t quite what they should be” (to adapt a metaphor another user used to me). But maybe the meal is meant for the posh friends and not for me? :slight_smile:

Because basically, Tinderbox is what Tinderbox is. Small developers have limited resources (as we all know), and Tinderbox’s have put their efforts into features and functionality. Perhaps I should accept what it is, rather than hope that it will change into what I’d like it to be?

H

Well, I gotta say… I tried out Tinderbox. I even bought it. I surrender. You can do amazing stuff with that thing. Without too much effort I made it handle a plot for me. I could easily extract subplots and themes etc. Very nice. I have dabbled a bit in programming so the learning curve wasn’t too bad (not yet at any rate). But it must be one of the most geeky applications I have ever used. And the documentation is … somewhere between challenging and non-existent. Weird! But fun. Maybe even useful if I can make my “plot inspector” work and turn it into some kind of template for further use.

@Hugh:

Okay, I’ll try out DevonThink. I have shunned it so far. It looks so all devouring. But I’ll give it a try. I can always reboot myself if it takes over my life.

And while I’m at it I’lll give EagleFlier and Together a run for their money as well. We go way back Chronos and I, and I’m not going back there. That mostly has to do with personal preference.

And thanks for all your kind help and suggestions.

I seem to remember (Vermonter may correct me on this) that in another forum it was voted by general acclamation Most Geeky Application. I don’t think it had a serious rival! :laughing:

Since SlipBox was mentioned in this thread, I thought I’d add a few remarks. Disclaimer: I’m the developer, so expect a slight bias. :wink:

I’m using SlipBox and Scrivener together a lot. In SlipBox, I keep my scientific notes (a collection that’s been growing for over 5 years now), and Scrivener I use to compile most of my first drafts for papers and the like. It seems that what many of you are looking for is exactly what SlipBox is designed to do: collect your ideas (notes) and then make them usable when you need them. In particular the second part is something that’s a real drag with any other note taking app I’ve ever tried.

SlipBox has two main strong points: First, it encourages me to write proper notes and not just dump stuff that I never look at again. Second, the associative searches (SlipBox suggests slips - notes - that are related to the slip currently being displayed) means that it is much more likely that I will find notes that I wrote a few years earlier and that I have forgotten about, but that are related to what I’m currently thinking about. As ideas are my main job really, this is absolutely priceless for me.

On the technical side, it has been mentioned that there is a mobile version of SlipBox. There now is also a free lite version if you’d like to try it. The desktop app is still freely available. (Go to tabi-software.com/ for more information.)

For the interaction with Scrivener, I’m currently working on a general way to drag & drop notes (slips) from SlipBox. With this, it will be possible to drag notes directly into Scrivener. (It’s already working nicely, but I’m trying to build a more general solution.) There also had been a plan between the Scrivener guys and me that Scrivener would be specifically able to understand drops from SlipBox, which would mean that the keywords would be preserved, for example, but we somehow lost track of that.

Oh, and support for Simplenote is the next thing coming in SlipBox (iOS and OS X).

Sorry about the shameless plug and the length of the post, but it just seemed SlipBox might the tool you’re looking for.

I couldn’t agree more.

Thanks for the commentary on SlipBox. I’ve looked at it in the past and have been impressed, though I’ve not been convinced that SlipBox is full-featured enough for my needs. I’ll gladly try it again. One question. I recall that the associate searches return results with just the matching slips’ numbers and not any titles. Is that still the case, or is there a way to set it so that the titles display?

Thanks!

Steve

Tinderbox was mentioned as one of the geekiest, but I think it lost out to several other even geekier applications – I think MaxThink ended up being the winner on the PC side. Here’s the link to that thread:

outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/1315/

Steve

There is now much better support for titles, although it remains an informal notion (the first line of the slip text). The table displaying search results of the `raw’ searches now can display all information stored on a slip, including title, source, keywords, author, date, flagged, etc. This is user configurable.

Slip scents (the connections between slips/notes that are used for the associative searches) are currently still only computed on the basis of keywords shared between slips, but this will become more flexible and elaborate in the very near future, i.e. information on the slips other than the keywords will also be used for computing the slip scents.

i take notes in the … i don’t know what it’s called … the thingy that sits on my desktop that you put notes and clips into for devonthink pro office.

i also sometimes take notes using text edit, then save them to a file i call “stash” on my dropbox.

wherever i put them, i move them later over into scrivener.

on the go, i use the note thing that came with my iphone for notes, or evernote for clips. the little note thing sends the notes to mail, so they’re right there when i get back to my computer.

the advantages of using devonthink pro office are that i already have it, it’s set up to file notes for my writing or whatever and does it almost automatically, and it keeps things where i can find them and move them to wherever i want.

the reasons for the note thing on the iphone are that it’s free & it syncs automatically into my computers for later.

Replace!! Here is an example Rule I wrote:

$InternalWaitingLinks = count(links.outbound.waitingFor.Name); if ($StatusCompleted == never & (!StatusTags(waitingFor) & !StatusTags(Someday)) & ($InternalSequentialState(parent) == 0 | $SiblingOrder <= $InternalSequentialState(parent)) & ($SiblingOrder == 1 | $StatusCompleted(prevSibling) != never)) { $InternalNextAction = true; $InternalUrgency = 1; } else { $InternalNextAction = false; }; if ($ChildCount > 0) { $StatusProgress = (count(collect_if(child, $StatusCompleted!=never, $Name)) / $ChildCount) * 10; };

That is just one piece of about a dozen which give this Tinderbox file an OmniFocus style opt-in sequential action processing which is capable of leaping over stragglers and intelligently allocating itself into queues based on overall workload.

I agree with your general statement; though I’m not sure if I agree with your implementation of it. It sounds like you would have Tinderbox essentially eschew all of the things that make it the only program on any platform that does what it does—merely so it could fit in better with its neighbours. You want the guy inventing a cure for HIV in his basement to spend more time trimming the hedges—basically. I’d rather have him in the basement no matter how out of fit his lawn looks. :slight_smile:

Trying to express the above, which isn’t even that complex in the grand scheme, with graphics would be a nightmare. Truly. 200 built-in attributes (with opportunity for many more of your own) and 100 syntax operators many of which have infinite optional values that can be passed to them? There is a reason software isn’t written with a bunch of icons and squiggly lines, but with code. Code is a language for expression of abstract logical transformations on information/language. The best analogy I can think of would be to compare written word with pictograms. The pictograms might be easier to learn than the many complex and sometimes strange rules of grammar, but you can’t easily express nuanced ideas with little colourful graphics. For “dumb” stuff like, “Whoa, you are going the wrong way down this road, sir!”, a pictogram is fantastic; make it red and bright. For describing how to reset an obscure counter in a 23rd level child, and synchronise it with a master node that is collecting regression data from 1,000s of child items which are passively gathering data from from a few hundred server’s status dumps over the Internet—eh… not so much!

I’m not going to say “ordinary users be damned”, but it is a little like someone saying Maya should tone down the complexity because the modern crop of 3D For Everyone applications are making it so anyone can create a spinning text graphic and it takes so many steps to do the same thing in Maya and you have to do them all right, or bad things will happen. DEVONthink, VoodooPad and these types of programs can get away with a graphical query system because they have a tiny fraction of Tinderbox’s breadth in this arena. They have, at most, about a half-dozen “operators”; things like “Contains” and “Starts with”. They have nothing at all like [b]$x |= substr($data,n,x) + eval("secMaster", $runCode)[/b]. Or they do, to a degree, but where they do, they use AppleScript, Lua, or Python. Syntax.

But all of that aside: I do agree that it could use a more efficient (I’m not going to say friendlier, I don’t think all software needs to be friendly) intake system. Twig is good for that; I’m just not sure if it is $80 good. I frankly don’t mind adding notes right into a map. I can see ways to improve the efficiency of that, but it’s not killing me the way it is.

I definitely recommend downloading Mark Anderson’s aTbRef. It is kept very up to date, and is an exhaustive reference of everything Tb can do, written in Tinderbox. You can view the HTML version of it which he exports from the Tb file, here.

Tb’s help to a step back when they switched from PDF to Apple Help, in my opinion. But I really, really despise Apple’s help browser! :slight_smile: It’s a horrible interface for a complex program. I guess it’s fine for something like iTunes, but yeah. Much prefer PDF for anything that requires a decent amount of study.

Ha! I don’t think I really disagree with you Ioa. Ideally I’d like to see the hedges clipped as well as HIV cured, but if I’ve got to choose, then naturally the choice is obvious. I wouldn’t want to lose what makes Tinderbox so powerful. Even if I can’t use all the power, I can admire it now and maybe master it some day. :slight_smile:

But the reason I’m still chewing away at this is that Tbx isn’t marketed as a specialist, limited-user, occupation-specific tool on a par with Maya. It’s sold as equivalent to say, Curio, a generalist consumer application designed for most ordinary users, and so one’s expectations are high both that the hedges and lawns will be clipped and that the work in the basement will whirr away quietly and unobtrusively all the while - that with a modest amount of familiarisation one can smoothly make it do the things it says it will do within an environment that is relatively straightforward to comprehend. Those expectations cannot really be fulfilled, as your post shows, and it’s probably unfair to the application to believe that they should be.

I think the Chinese would strongly disagree with your take on pictograms :smiley: