Return-key forces immediate linebreak when typing Japanese

Hi,

when typing Japanese, a return key at first turns all typed phonetic characters into a mixture of syllables and Chinese characters, the transformed text is underlined and can be corrected if necessary. When everything is OK, hitting the return-key fixes the chosen characters. The cursor stays in the same line. If a new paragraph is desired, the return key is hit a second time.

In Scrivener, hitting the return key results in fixing the characters and an immediate linebreak.

Can this be fixed?

Maria
(still working on 10.4.11)

Hi Maria,

I’m not really sure what you mean. Isn’t this the same in TextEdit? As you know, Scrivener just uses the OS X text system so it doesn’t do anything weird with the return key…

Best,
Keith

Hi Keith,

Text Edit (and Bean) react as expected, they do not insert a line break when hitting the return key the first time.

As for the text system, I wrote you a long description in my last pm to you, if you still have it saved, you might find more detail. Otherwise I will do my best to be more explicit. btw. Mark (xiamenese) might have the same problem with Chinese, I have it on both computers.

Best,
Maria

Hi Maria and Keith,

I’m not usually typing Chinese in Scrivener, but the Chinese entry system is different … when you type the pinyin romanisation, a small window opens up giving you a list of the possible characters or combination of characters that have that pronunciation. When you’ve found it, you press the number associated with it. So you only use the return key when you want a newline.

Incidentally, Maria, if you have to type Chinese at all, I’d have a look at QIM with QDM … much more intelligent than the Apple system and well worth the minimal outlay if you do much writing in Chinese.

When I have time, I’ll try entering some Chinese in Scrivener to see what happens. I’m glad to say that Leopard is much better in terms of its default Simplified Chinese font … it’s now using a proper jiantizi font, not one based on Japanese which lacks many characters.

Mark

Could it be to do with the formatting you are using? Is there some special setting for this? Scrivener does absolutely nothing weird here. For weird behaviour, Scrivener would have to intercept the return key being hit and do something different, but it doesn’t. So, I have got no idea why anything different would happen. Have you tried pasting in the same formatting? Is it something to do with the spell checker or grammar checker? Are these turned on in Scrivener as well in other programs?

I’m not really sure what to tell you, as I can find no special setting for this within the Cocoa docs.

Best,
Keith

Mark,

thanks for tuning in. And thanks for the hint for Chinese. At the moment, I am more into Korean, but another “Chinese wave” is already at the horizon. I will appreciate your advice. Btw., did you know that Japanese has more Chinese characters than Chinese :wink: (see Morohashi). But you are right: There not so many integrated into the Japanese fonts for the computer, just because Japanese nowadays don’t need so many, they just have.

I hope the problem can be solved and I am happy that Keith replied immediately.

Best,
Maria

Hi Keith,
I have no Spell checker or Grammar checker turned on, no special style settings. I am just writing a text with no style. Now I have changed the font, but this makes no difference. Background idea: Yet I wrote in a Western font and changed to Japanese inbetween. That makes the system decide for a Japanese font substitute. Today I am writing basically and only with a Japanese font and only in Japanese. As I said, on both computers, so there should be no accidental change.

As for pasting into the same style, I sometimes do so, but I cannot remember that I did so in this project yet. Can this have any influence?

At the moment I am trying to work using the enter-key for confirmation, this does not cause any line break, but this is hell when one is used to typing in another way. Maybe the enter key helps finding the problem?

Thanks again for looking into it,
Maria

Try turning auto-capitalise off. Does that have any effect?

Also, try in the notes text view. Does that have the same problem as the main text view?

Best,
Keith

Keith,

auto-capitalise is allways off, but I checked. No relation to this.

I also tried notes, synopses and the normal editor. Scrivener works the normal way.

It happens only in Edit Scrivenings, full screen and normal Editor. So this might help?

Maria

Can you try turning everything else off relating to typing, too? Smart quotes, smart symbols, typewriter scrolling etc. It sounds as though something I have overridden in Scrivener’s text view has inadvertently broken this so it’s first a matter of finding out what. Also, presumably you are not in scriptwriting mode - double-check that, as that would mess with newlines.
Best,
Keith

Everything was turned off except for “Automatically show completions” (Text Editing) and “Activate typographers quote” (Typography).

I turned these off, but the problem remains.

Maria

Here is the input guide for some Japanese:

Turn on Japanese under the keyboard tab in the United Nations flag in the System preferences. Select “Kotoeri” and deselect the 5 input methods below Hiragana, which is checked anyway.

back to Scr select Hiragana on top right in the keyboard menu and then type:

korehanani

It will look like this:

これはなに (undelined)

then hit the space-bar, and the following choice (with fat and fine underline) will appear:

これ花に (without linebreak normally, with linebreak in Edit Scrivenings)

Ijoudesu.

This only happens in Edit Scrivenings, though, right? I just tested it, and it seems that it’s only in E.S. - it would have helped had you clarified that! :slight_smile:
Best,
Keith

…And now that you’ve clarified it and explained how to reproduce it, I’ve found it and fixed it for 1.12…
Best,
Keith

I appreciate your effort in fixing the bug, I would also appreciate another tone in the conversation. I told you about the Edit Scrivenings factor as soon as I realised that.
Maria

Maria, I spent HOURS today fixing this bug, tracking down code, switching between languages etc. Hours. And I spent some time quizzing you about this yesterday. I see now that when you said, “It happens only in Edit Scrivenings, full screen and normal Editor”, you meant that it happened only in Edit Scrivenings, when in full screen and normal editor. I interpreted this as it happening in Edit Scrivenings AND full screen AND normal editor (as opposed to in the notes view or index card view), not only in that one mode, and wasted a lot of time because of the ambiguity of your phrasing. Nor did you provide exact steps to reproduce before as you did today - please do see “how to post a bug report” for more information on providing informative bug reports that help me fix things quickly.

My tone wasn’t meant to offend - hence the smiley. I prioritised and fixed your bug quickly. When I saw your name as a reply I expected a pleased reply and instead I get snapped at. I would ask that you please keep your own tone civil in future before jumping down my throat when I’ve bent over backwards to help you.

Hello Keith & Maria :smiley:

This is not a bug report. Just a note to say thank you. I only yesterday purchased Scrivener after using the Demo for less than an hour! :smiley:

I was impressed not only with its capabilities in English, but also how smoothly it works with Japanese.

From reading the posts, it seems you both put in a lot of work to make Scrivener work in non-English, double-bite characters.

I know from first-hand experience how difficult it is to try and communicate bugs that occur in Japanese so that the developer can understand. Sometimes it involves short lessons in Japanese. :wink:

Also, I am always amazed at how willing the developer is to work out the bug without being familiar with the Japanese-language environment as well as do all the extra coding to make it work. Many thanks to both you Keith and Maria!

I hope the fruitful relationship between you two continue because when you work together it helps Japanese-users like me who are new Scrivener as well. :smiley:

Just for your information, you seem to have avoided a problem that plagues other software. That is, when you “export” Japanese text into a “.doc” and open the “.doc” file using Word 2008, the Japanese appears exactly as it should. In other applications, including Apple’s own TextEditor itself!, when you do this you get mojibake (garbled characters) where the Japanese should appear. After hours of telephone calls with Apple Japan and Microsoft Japan, the bug was found in the .doc generator built into Leopard which Apple needs to fix. To repeat, amazingly Scrivener does not have this problem! :smiley:

Well … I just wanted to say thanks. I plan to make Scrivener a big tool in my academic writing and intend to pass the word on to my Mac friends here in Japan.

PS. Are there any plans to localize Scrivener to Japanese?

Cheers! :slight_smile:

Darren

Darren McDonald
Tokyo

Thanks, Darren!

Regarding the .doc bug - this is because the .doc files exported from Scrivener are really renamed RTF files with their internal creator codes changed - which is a perfectly legitimate way of creating a .doc file for MS Word. It’s worth noting, though, that in the next update, Scrivener uses the standard .doc exporter if there are no images, footnotes, comments or headers and footers in the document (it has to use RTF to support these features). So, just for your reference, if in future you experience such a bug in Scrivener, just make sure that you set it up so that the document has a header (or a comment) so that it uses the RTF-as-DOC export rather than the straight DOC export.

As for localisation - I hope, one day, to get Scrivener to localised into other languages. There are lots of volunteers. Maybe later this year…

Thanks again!
Keith