Slight Bug / Misfeature in Outliner

Version: 3.0.1.0 (1274647) 64-bit - 28 Apr 2021

Hello,

If I’m overlooking a setting somewhere, please let me know…

When I click on a folder or a file-container (containing additional files), and select the Outliner view, the Folder / Container is NOT included in the Outliner view. (This is technically true for the “Manuscript” folder itself also).

So, the problem is this-- How am I supposed to know how many Words (and other aggregated stats) for the selected group of documents?

What I would like to see happen (make it a checkbox option if the current behavior is required for some reason??)–

(A) When you select a Folder / Container, the aggregated stats are INCLUDED in the Outliner view. Then there’s a quick / easy way to get an aggregated perspective for the sub-documents it contains.

(B) When selecting ANY group of documents, even if they are discontinuous, ADD an aggregated view line. Show it in different colors or something if you want, just to make it obvious it’s not a natural view (if that matters to anyone)

If there is a way of already obtaining this view without having to go select the next higher folder, I’d sure like to know about. It’s kind of a pain in the butt getting Chapter stats the way it is.

Click on any document or folder in scrivenings mode (not outline mode) and look for word count in the footer bar (bottom of the Editor).

I just did that on a text folder I know has around 3600 words in it, and it tells me ONE word (which is a word that’s legitimately in the file, so it isn’t wrong, it just doesn’t show me the aggregated count). I tried it on a different text-folder and it tells me zero words. So it doesn’t work in either instance.

Interestingly though, in putting together this response, I may have stumbled across a way it DOES work, so you might have helped me inadvertently solve my problem… :slight_smile:

If you only select the top-level folder, and put it into outline mode, it seems to have variable results (don’t ask me why??). For each of the examples below, select what I say, and then put it into Outline mode to reproduce my results. Also, it doesn’t seem to matter if they are “real” folders or “file-folders”. The results appear to be the same either way.

(1) I try it on one folder that has a SINGLE file underneath it, and it tells me the correct aggregated information. (Though, how “aggregated” is it really, if it only contains one file??)

(2) I try selecting a folder that has MULTIPLE FILES underneath it and it DOES NOT include the top-level folder or the aggregated count. <---- BUG

(3) I select the TOP-LEVEL FOLDER AND the Files underneath it, and it DOES show me the aggregated count, along with the top-level item.

So, in conclusion, there DOES appear to be a “BUG” in the behaviour, but there’s also a workaround possible until it gets resolved.

As lunk said, you need to be in Scrivenings mode, NOT Outline mode, to see the total word count in the footer.

Katherine

By Scrivenings, you mean the collected view, not the editor view. Yes, that does work, but it pulls me out of the editor to do it.

Using the outline let’s me take a quick look and then pop right back into the editor. But it’s likely not a huge difference, except the scrivenenings mode I have to wait for it to talley up the individual sections, versus outline mode, which has the answer immediately.

In any case, you have a BUG (irregularity) in your OUTLINE mode. Thanks for the assistance, but don’t forget that part of the takeaway.

This is because, based on your screenshot, it seems that you were in single binder item mode, not Scrivenings mode. If you’d pressed the Scrivenings toggle button, then the contents of the editor would have changed to show the binder item and all its children documents stitched together, and the word count would have changed to an aggregate of the binder item plus all its children.

I tried to follow your instructions for recreating the bug, but couldn’t work out where you are looking for the aggregated counts. Do you mean the Total Words column? For binder items with children, Total Words shows the aggregated count of the binder item and it’s children. It works fine for me. If you don’t mean Total Words, then where are you looking for the aggregated count?

Side note: My recommendation for next time you ask a question or submit a bug report is to use the Tutorial project as your test case and for your screenshots. There are a number of advantages to using the Tutorial project. In your examples, you can call out specific documents with specific word counts. Everyone watching at home, particularly the developers, can then test with exactly the same data you use in your examples. Also, you can show complete screenshots without having to obscure your writing, which makes it easier for you, and means you won’t inadvertently obscure parts of the screen that are important to anyone trying to help you out.

Best,
Jim

Do you know where I can download a fresh copy of the original / tutorial project?

Did you miss the “scrivenings mode” part of my response? If you click on a folder and you’re in document mode, it doesn’t count words in other documents within the folder.

I did see / understand the difference re: scrivener mode when AmberV pointed it out. I hadn’t picked up on that specifically in the original reply. And I did test it out, and it does work as advertised. Although, as I noted, I have to wait to see the aggregated total as it reads in the sub-items and talleys them up.

If I look on the Outline, I get the total immediately.

The time difference is negligible, a few seconds difference, so-- you know, tom-AY-to / tom-AH-to…

But there is a difference when doing it in the Outline, which is what prompted me to make my original post. When I made my original post, I was only aware of the one situation where it was not showing me the aggregated total (in the outline). After receiving the reply, I went and played with it again and realized the results are inconsistent-- irregular is probably the better word, and likely constitute a “BUG” (a tiny one), as I suspect it wasn’t by design.

Please note that MOST of my “folders” are “text-file folders”, meaning text files that have sub-documents. I do have “Parts” in my book, which I use to group the various “text-file folders” into, and which are actual “folders”. It seemed to work the same way, though I don’t have enough variety in my WIP to test all cases. It’s possible there is a difference when testing actual “folders” versus “text-file folders”.

In each of the cases I outlined above, I first make the selection(s) in the binder, and then make sure it’s in outline mode.

When I do that, I get the results I mentioned previously. I have highlighted the anomalous case, though technically, both items 1 & 2 have the same issue, since #1 accidentally answered my question correctly, I didn’t claim it to be a bug.

I have included screenshots of what I’m doing and how I get my results. I don’t have the default project, nor do I think it has this specific use case if I did (I can’t recall, that was a long time ago :slight_smile: )

(1) I try it on one folder that has a SINGLE file underneath it, and it tells me the correct aggregated information. (Though, how “aggregated” is it really, if it only contains one file??)

(2) I try selecting a folder that has MULTIPLE FILES underneath it and it DOES NOT include the top-level folder or the aggregated count. <---- BUG

(3) I select the TOP-LEVEL FOLDER AND the Files underneath it, and it DOES show me the aggregated count, along with the top-level item.

BTW, if it matters, I’m using: Version: 3.0.1.0 (1274647) 64-bit - 28 Apr 2021

No, that is not what she meant. There are four viewing modes: outline, corkboard, document, and scrivenings. We’re talking about scrivenings mode.

Search for “scrivenings” in the manual or go to section 4.2 of the manual.

No, I understand. I said “collected”-- you say scrivenings. We mean the same thing, just saying it differently. I rarely use “scrivenings” mode and tend to work between the editor and the outline.

However, the “bug” that I noticed, is still there, regardless of what we call “scrivenings” mode. :slight_smile:

If you’re opening a stale copy when you use the Help->Interactive Tutorial menu, find that project and delete it, then revisit the same menu to create a fresh one.

Thanks

Do one of your screenshots depict the “bug”? It’s impossible to tell, because the screenshots do not contain the necessary context.

Here’s what’s important for you to show in your screenshots:

  • The Binder - so we can see the structure of your binder items. Currently you’re obscuring the important info in the Binder. We need to see the binder items and whether they’re parents or children.
  • The Total Words column - so we can see the aggregate, for parent binder items
  • The Word Count column - so we can see the word count for individual binder items

Best,
Jim

It’s NOT a choice of “editor” versus “outline”. Scrivenings and document modes are both Editor view modes. (So are outline and corkboard, but I can see why you’d think otherwise.)

In scrivenings mode, you DO get aggregate word counts. There is no bug.

[attachment=0]scrivenings.png[/attachment]

There are THREE separate screenshots. EACH screenshot corresponds to one of the three cases I outlined.

The “context” I believe you’re referring to is that they are TEXT-FILE FOLDERS, meaning text files that have sub-documents, as opposed to the type that is simply “FOLDER”.

Which, btw, WAS in all of the screenshots I provided, as only binder items that have sub-items have a number on them, showing the number of sub-items. However, to be as clear as possible, I have included a non-blurred screenshot for your viewing pleasure :slight_smile:

JWhitten

BTW- I double-checked the screenshots-- the third screenshot DID show the information you requested.

I already agreed that I do. That it works exactly the way you said. Though, I did also point out that I have to wait while it talleys up the sub-documents. The Outline mode has the number immediately. Though it is not a huge time to wait, a few seconds at most.

Is there something I’m missing?

Ah. You meant there’s a literal WAIT while Scrivener does the math? I thought you could mean something entirely different, since you kept indicating it’s a choice of “editor” versus “outline”, when it absolutely is not.

Anyway, you have a method, so go with it.

No. The context I’m referring to is, as I mentioned previously:

  • The Binder - so we can see the structure of your binder items. Currently you’re obscuring the important info in the Binder. We need to see the binder items and whether they’re parents or children.
  • The Total Words column - so we can see the aggregate, for parent binder items
  • The Word Count column - so we can see the word count for individual binder items

If I understand what you are saying, it’s that sometimes the Outliner is not showing the correct aggregated word count.

The only way anyone can confirm for you whether you are correct about the bug or it’s simply a misunderstanding on your part about how it’s supposed to work, is if you show us a) the binder structure, b) the Total Words column, for an understanding of what Scrivener is calculating as an aggregate, and c) the Word Count column, so we can add up the child documents’ words to compare against the aggregate.

Yes, but that doesn’t help, as it’s not showing the bug.

Yes, it literally opens the documents and talleys them as I watch. The count goes up until it stops. Then I get the number. When I use the outline, it just gives me the number. But, either way is fine.

And yes, I do have a method that works, and would like to pass on my observation to the Scrivener team so they can evaluate what / if / how to deal with their minor bug.

And THANK YOU for your very kind assistance !!! Much appreciated !!!

JWhitten