Using Scrivener with Dropbox

Scrivener
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There are a bunch of things that happen when you close your project, and some of those things are not activities that have any noticeable latency. For example there is a file that Scrivener adds to the project when you open it. This file contains anonymous information about your computer, and it is checked for whenever you load a project—if that file exists, Scrivener throws up a warning, telling you the project appears to opened by such-and-such computer. If you’ve ever had a crash or tried to open a project twice, you know what I mean. This file is of course removed when the project is closed—and that happens instantly. So Dropbox immediately registers a file removal event, and you start to see the spinner—by that time, it’s very likely all of the unsaved data you’ve been working on in the past few seconds has also been written to the disk (keep in mind that with Scrivener’s auto-save feature, there likely isn’t much at all that needs to be written when closing down, just a few housekeeping tasks for the most part—it’s not at all like Word, where saving a 150,000 word .doc file must save all of those words), and now Dropbox has those files to update, but since they require upload, it will take a little longer to do so—Scrivener is now way ahead of your network.

At this point, the project has been successfully closed and fully written to the disk, but of course now is when most people will see the backup process begin. That takes significantly longer than any of the above. All of the above should be nearly instantaneous—which is why Dropbox starts working immediately. During backup, Scrivener is creating a full duplicate of every single byte in the project, and that takes a lot, lot longer! It then most likely zip compresses all of those bytes, taking even longer still. We are now within the realm of what the human brain can detect and the eye can see. You’re staring at a backup progress bar, maybe for a split second, maybe for a few seconds in a large project, but by the time you see that Scrivener is already way beyond saving your project. In computer terms, that was aeons ago. :slight_smile:

So that is why you see Dropbox already working, even though Scrivener is still chugging through a progress bar.

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Many thanks for that AmberV. It’s probably not something a writer ever needs to know but still reassuring to read. I have a background in computers and understand most of it, myself. I also use a 2007 iMac which is a lot slower to process the backups on closing etc, so the process is probably more elongated for me 8)

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Also, remember that Dropbox can’t see the internals of what Scrivener (or any other program) is doing. It only notices that a file in the Dropbox folder has changed. So it’s not actually possible for Dropbox to get “ahead” of Scrivener: if Scrivener hasn’t saved the file yet, then there isn’t anything there to be synced.

Katherine

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I’m not AmberV, but just my 2 cents: :laughing:

As I understand the process, Scrivener is always saving. The default is to save after 2 seconds have passed since your last keypress (you can notice it by the “*” dissapearing from the file name on the window title). So it’s very likely that when you quit Scrivener all your data is already saved.

On quitting, Scrivener saves some additional housekeeping files, which are “immediately” sensed as changed by Dropbox and hence it starts to sync.

EDIT: Just noticed that the question had already been throughly answered. :unamused:

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Thanks r6d2 - I appreciate your added input :slight_smile:

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When I save a Scrivener project to Dropbox, dropbox creates a folder ending in “.scriv”. The actual project is stored in this folder and ends with a “.scrivx” extension. When I try to download this file to any Mac, I see a message asking if it’s ok to append the 'scriv" extension to my file. When I click OK, I get an error message stating the File System will not allow the extension to be added to file and so the file can’t be opened. I’m in a circular loop I can’t get out of. I can’t find a permissions setting in Scrivener or on OSX to correct this. Is this a Dropbox setting?

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Ok. I’m with you there. Mine does too.

Yes. A package folder.

I’m losing you here. When you say in your first statement that you (Scrivener ?) save the scrivener to dropbox, is the dropbox folder not already on your Mac ?

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As saoir said, your life will be much easier if you install the Dropbox software locally.

Your Scrivener project is the .scriv folder and all of its contents, including subfolders. The .scrivx file is just the master index file; your data is stored elsewhere, in the Files/Docs subfolder. That’s true on any system, but on the Mac the project appears as a “package,” with only the top-level .scriv folder visible.

To download the project successfully, you need to make sure that you get the whole thing: the whole .scriv folder, not just the .scrivx file. The easiest way to do that is by installing the Dropbox software locally. Then, the Dropbox folder should look like just another folder in Finder, and everything will “just work.”

If instead, you are downloading the project manually, Dropbox should offer to put the whole folder into a .zip file (projectname.scriv.zip) which you can then unzip on the destination system and open as normal.

Katherine

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Thank you very much Saoir and Katherine. I now understand that the .scriv folder is the project I need to load, rather than a file within that folder. Much appreciated!

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I don’t want to hijack this thread, which I’ve been reading with interest because of the weird things that happened to me today. Scrivener crashed on my older iMac G5 while compiling my novel. At that point,when I tried to reopen my project, I got a warning from Scrivener that the project was already open on my macbook, which was off and sitting in a desk 50 miles away! I heeded the warning and let Scrivener make a copy.

Just now, I started up the macbook, having come up here for the weekend. I got a warning that my novel was open on my iMac (which is off, and 50 miles away!). So I didn’t open that novel. My other stories in progress look just fine and updated properly, but this really freaked me out! I gather, from this conversation, that the warnings were just because Scrivener crashed and therefore didn’t close the project properly? So I guess I don’t have anything to worry about?

It was scary, though!

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I don’t get the relevance of Dropbox here … ?

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Sorry! I should have said that I use Dropbox to back up my projects and now (for about the last 8 months) to keep them synced between the two machines. The message I got scared me because there are such strict warnings about not having a project stored in the Dropbox folder open on more than one machine. This novel is stored in my Dropbox folder. But I gathered from this thread that you can get this error message if Scriv fails to close properly. So I think that must be what happened.

Thanks for your responses.

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That’s correct. When Scrivener closes your project, one of the things it does is remove this marker file that indicates that your machine has it open—so if it crashes while the project is open, that file will not be removed and if another copy of Scrivener (even on the same machine, but usually this is going to happen from another computer) tries to open the project, it will see that file and pop up a warning about it looking open.

This is why we give you the choice to “Continue”, because there will definitely be cases like this, where you know it is closed, but is probably just left open from a crash and is safe to open.

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Thanks again, AmberV. That’s most reassuring.

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I’m successfully sharing project files between my MacBook Pro and Mac Air for the most part. However, the formatting stylesheet that I use on the MacBook Pro do not show up on the Air. I’m having to redo the stylesheet for each project on the Air. Am I missing something? Is there a way to get the stylesheet to the Air?

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I am thoroughly confused by the directions posted regarding using Dropbox to sync between two Macs.
Here is the link: scrivener.tenderapp.com/help/kb … c-services
(I use my big iMac at home and have a MacBook I take with me to the office and on the road. iMac runs Yosemite while MacBook runs 10.7.5.)

The problem I have are with the instructions of “Alternative Method.”

I don’t know which settings this refers to. Are these settings found in Scrivener or in Dropbox? I cannot seem to find them in either. (Screenshots attached)

I’ve been going back-and-forth with Simplenote, but my project requires a lot of footnotes, and it takes an insane amount of time to correctly put those in when I get back into Scrivener (largely due to the fact that one cannot edit styles within footnotes window, yet it always retains the style of the material one copies from the manuscript.)

Since there is no cloud-based Scrivener option (it seems that, along with an iOS version are long overdue for a program of this beauty and functionality), I need an easy to understand way to work on the same Scrivener project on my two different Macs at different times. (Obviously, I understand that the project can only be open on one computer at a time.)

Thank you,
Parker

Attached are some screenshots of the “backup” settings in Scrivener as well as the settings menus in Dropbox.
Screenshot 2014-12-15 13.21.28.png
Screenshot 2014-12-15 13.21.06.png

Screenshot 2014-12-15 13.20.16.png
Screenshot 2014-12-15 13.20.16.png797×378 50.1 KB

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You can put your project straight into Dropbox, that option does exist. This alternative method that is described is merely the safer and less convenient variant on that idea.

So, with that said, you seem to be striving for the wrong thing here. You are trying to implement the alternative method which involves a concept roughly along the lines of copying working files between computers using a floppy disk (albeit using the public Internet as your pocket storage), but then stating that you want “cloud” stuff everywhere and are aware you can’t open the project twice. These are two entirely different things.

I’m not sure what you’re looking for, but if you are looking to implement the safer alternative method, you need to tell Scrivener to save automatic backups to your sync folder. There isn’t anything mysterious about this particular approach—you just have Scrivener save files to a certain folder, and since that folder is in an area of your disk that Dropbox scans and syncs, they automatically sync, it is very simple in theory, which is why it is so safe. Check for the Backup Location setting in the Backup preference tab.

Just to make sure we are clear on the alternatives, here are the two approaches, choose which will work best for you:

  • You put your projects in the Dropbox folder. You must now pay strict attention to Dropbox activity at all times, but especially when switching between machines. Never open a Scrivener project on a new computer until Dropbox has 100% completed its sync tasks on all of your computers. Despite the risks, this method is obviously the most convenient since you can just fire up Scrivener wherever you are and pick up where you left off. This is the sort of convenience most people refer to as the “cloud”.
  • You keep all of your projects outside of the domain of what is synced, and instead you use Scrivener’s automatic backup feature to create an automated “floppy disk” between computers. You close your project on machine A, it creates a duplicate copy of your project in a folder that is watched by sync software. That copy gets uploaded to the Internet and then downloaded to all of your machines. So your working habit is to always take the “top” backup off the stack, replace whatever is on the local machine with that copy.

Obviously, procedurally the second option is more complicated. You have to manage your project files manually. Pull recent copies out of zip files and replace old copies, etc. But on the other hand it requires less mindfulness of the process. Sure, you have a little ritual to start the day, getting the latest version of the project out of the backup folder, but you don’t have to stress out over projects getting conflicted and forked by Dropbox over so simple a mistake as closing the lid on your laptop too quickly after closing your project.

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Wow, such a quick, detailed response! Thanks.

The “cloud-based Scrivener option” I was talking about was one native to Scrivener (much like Simplenote has its own native cloud). This would require a lot less moving parts/opportunities for me to foul things up. :smiley:

The confusing part of the original “Alternative Method” for me was here:

I couldn’t figure out if the settings needed to be adjusted in Scrivener (to send backups to a different folder), or if the settings needed to be adjusted in Dropbox (to pull its “sync” from a specific folder).

Is this the “Alternative Method”? The less moving parts for me the better. :stuck_out_tongue: I can remember to let DropBox finish syncing, but if I need to create zip files and/or delete old ones, then I may goof that up.

I think you cleared this up for me, and I now have Scrivener backups going to users/username/Dropbox/Scrivener (Scrivener getting its own folder within Dropbox). Does that sound right? (Screenshot attached)

As I understand it: now all I have to do is close out of Scrivener (it will autosave) on my Mac desktop, and open my MacBook, make sure Dropbox finish syncing, then open Scrivener, and the project should be available. Do I open this with “recent projects” or do I need to download/unpack a zip drive?

Also, does this still save backups as I go (like Scrivener does to my local disk)? I know I have a tendency to goof things up (Simplenote let me get myself into quite the pickle this week.) :smiley:

Sorry, I’m just confused on this and don’t want to lose everything. I really appreciate your patience and help.

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Ah, I see what you mean. That wouldn’t actually make things any easier for you. The work still needs to get done from A-Z, every single thing that Dropbox does would need to be done by us, and the solutions to fixing inevitable synchronisation problems would likely also be similar because the visibility of the problem itself is a condition of the algorithm running into a scenario where pure logic cannot produce a valid and singular response—a file. When that happens, a human must be consulted. There is no way around that.

Simplenote isn’t the same type of software—even remotely, so there are no valid comparisons between the two at the technical end. And, as you noted, even in a very basic self-contained system like Simplenote, it is still possible to foul things up.

There is no magic bullet. :slight_smile:

Just remember that you’re using the automatic backup system to share the most recent version of the project between your computers. That means using that copy to work on, when you switch machines, not whatever version of the project you were working on yesterday. Recent Projects is going to be wholly unaware of a Zip file that was added five minutes ago by Dropbox. :slight_smile: It can’t even open a Zip file.

For this reason, I like to set that backup folder to arranged files by their modification date. That means the Mac will sort these .zip files into groups. I can see all of the .zip backups created today in one group, yesterday in another group, and so on.

Of course, because Dropbox uses your local disk. The only thing you’ve changed in this equation is that the backups Scrivener creates to your local disk are now shared between computers automatically.

This is why I advocate copying the .zip out of the backup folder to a location outside of the Dropbox folder, unzipping it and working on it. Because those are your backups! You don’t want to edit them directly or work in that folder.

If this is still not making any sense, think of it in terms of analogy: all of this is no more logically or procedurally complicated than using a floppy disk a certain way (as mechanism for moving files around, rather than as a portable working disk).

When Scrivener creates a backup in the Dropbox folder, that is just like you sticking a floppy into the computer and dragging a .docx file to it. You then shut down the computer and walk to a different one. You are transferring the data in your pocket, instead of using the Internet, but it’s the same idea. You stick the floppy in, you copy the .docx file to the computer and work on it.

That’s all you are doing here. That’s why it is safe and easy to use, because you’re just copying the project from A to B and back again. The only difference is that you’re using some hyper-fancy futuristic global data distribution network instead of a floppy disk in your coat pocket. Everything else is the same. Copy up, copy down, work, repeat.

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Personally I think this whole zip thing is a distraction. Forget it … until some time in the future when you have a better understanding of it - like me :laughing: and also consign the word "cloud’ to the trash can. Forget it was ever written or mentioned.

Compare it with a letter you are writing to your friend Joe, to invite him to dinner next week.

Compose a draft letter on your Desktop
Save “Letter to Joe” in to a folder within the Dropbox App’s designated folder.
Sync Dropbox 100%

Then later go to your laptop, Open your word processor and open the “Letter to Joe” file … to continue editing the letter. When finished editing, save back inside the Dropbox designated folder where it was.
Sync Dropbox 100% on the laptop

Back home open your word processor and open the “Letter to Dad” file … to continue editing the letter.

And so on.

This is exactly what is being proposed, and this is the way I keep my writing backed up on Dropbox and available to be edited wherever I go and on any computer I chose.

So just go the Scrivener Settings and Backup section, and set “Backup Location” to a special folder inside your designated Dropbox folder. Then do exactly the same setting on your laptop. If you fully 100% sync before finishing work on each computer, the process should operate exactly as simply as the letter example.

That’s how I see it anyway and I hope it helps.