What does iOS 13 mean for Scrivener iOS and iCloud Sync?

The enhancements to the Files app and the debundling of iTunes will make it easier for people who don’t want to sync with Dropbox to manage files manually. :laughing:

I think it’s wonderful how people watch these announcements and immediately post, “Does this mean we’re going to get iCloud Sync?” or whatever, without stoping to think that Keith will need to look into it at length in order to determine what he can do once the betas have been released to developers!

Mark

I’m very aware of that. I don’t want to know specific answers, I wanted to get the discussion going. You know, this being a forum to… discuss things :wink:
I don’t expect KEITH to give answers in maybe months, and maybe even then saying:“there’s nothing there that significantly changes our situation or possibilities for Scrivener iOS or iCloud Sync”. That doesn’t mean there can’t be a great discussion going on about it, or IF Keith has things to share, this can be the thread. I remember when in iOS 11 Files came out, Keith chimed in to say which possibilities he got from the beta and the Files app. In the end, the changes Apple made between the iOS 11 Betas and the Final Release version meant that Keith couldn’t use an integration with the Files App with Scrivener iOS, and that was fine. I was always the first to say that I trust Keith’s judgement and I (like him) never wanted Literature and Latte to change the wonderful capabilities of the distinct Scrivener bundle package - format, just to provide a sync with one provider. (Although I think the Dropbox situation has become more problematic but that’s not what I want this thread to be about specifically).

So, let’s keep this forum alive with being able to discuss things and have people ask questions that maybe or maybe won’t get answers. I’m not demanding anything in my original post, if you re-read it. That’s kind of the point of the forum, no?

Exactly. It’s a forum. Discussion is kinda the point…

I suspect that lots of the limitations have been because of the limitations of IOS.

The last update to the IOS Scrivener app was on the 6th December 2017 - So over 18 months ago… So no-one is exactly rushing to update the app. But that’s probably (as well as the time issues of single developer), the fact that IOS 11 was the last real ‘feature’ one (IOS 12 really just seemed like a stability update).

But IOS 13 and iPadOS seem like substantive changes again to me.

iPADos Preview - https://www.apple.com/ipados/ipados-preview/

IOS 13 Preview - https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-13-preview/

Especially with the new iPadOS coming out, and what seems to be lots of foundational improvements to the actual capabilities of the OS, It would be nice to speculate on certain functionality that would make a real difference to daily workflows for people using Scrivener on the Ipad to write.

For me the two ‘biggies’ are adding in iCloud Sync and Scrivenings mode.

Yes, this is a forum, but I’ve been a member of these forums for over 12 years, and practically every year, immediately after a WWDC broadcast, someone posts a thread like:

https://forum.literatureandlatte.com/t/new-beta-for-macos-catalina/45820/1

Hence my comment. I should have finished with a Smiley.

:slight_smile:

Mark

Good discussions need to be rooted in facts, not speculation. There are too many people who will read pie-in-the-sky speculation and come away thinking L&L have promised something. There aren’t any facts yet, so maybe this sort of discussion is premature. Plenty of time to chew through the facts once they begin to make an appearance (as in the case of that Files app thread…)

The day after WWDC, the most accurate answer to any question about Scrivener’s use of new Apple capabilities is going to be “We don’t know.”

And we don’t.

We find out about WWDC announcements at the exact same time as the rest of the world. The iOS 13 developer preview was released yesterday. Even if we were to drop everything and jump right on the new features – which we don’t – we’d still need a measurable amount of time to see what’s possible and what changes we’d need to make.

Katherine

Well I stand by my earlier post - that much is certain.

At this (early) point, the early adopters on MacRumors are saying Scrivener doesn’t run on the Catalina developer beta so there will no doubt be more pressing things going on, too.

Seems like the latency on the pencil has been improved a lot as well in the new iPadOS

https://twitter.com/stroughtonsmith/status/1136821044994609152

Not sure if the new PencilKit add-on that Apple makes available to developers would mean apple pencil functionality could be integated into Scrivener more easily?

https://9to5mac.com/2019/06/06/pencilkit-apple-wwdc/

If so, that would make a lot of sense to me. Being able to write directly in the program with the apple pencil on the Ipad in Scrivener, would bring a lot of uses to the average writer, and would mean you could carry a lot of the workflow within one program.

MyNebo already does a good job of translating handwriting into text. But if that functionality was directly in Scrivener, then I could see a whole workflow, where you write in scrivener with the pencil (and have it count your words!), and then convert it into text directly in Scrivener.

Even if you still used the keyboard to write. Being able to plan out plots etc with the pencil, or just annotate what you have written (directly in the program), would definitely help to make the process smoother.

How do you know how the average writer uses Scrivener, iPad and Apple pencil? I could claim to be an average user and I would have no use at all for handwriting in Scrivener.

We love that you’ve remained a committed member of this community for so many years. Your perspective is incredibly insightful. Seeing these posts crop up every year, however, reveals that other members of this shared community are passionate and interested in having conversations about the future of Scrivener. Oftentimes, the conversations are founded in issues they’re affected by or changes they’d like to see to improve Scrivener’s functionality.

Personally, I don’t believe it’s ever too soon to speculate. If you believe it is, perhaps the topics of this nature just aren’t your cup of tea. As a community, it’s important we be willing to hear one another out, as we all bring different perspectives to the table and we are (likely) all members of the paying Scrivener community.

Let us not fall victim to hasty generalizations. It’s certainly true that all “average writers” do not have the same use-cases for Scrivener, but that doesn’t mean Smile’s idea is invalid. This is a forum meant for discussion. I believe the best discussion is had between open-minded individuals with a baseline level of respect for one another, especially when their views differ.

I agree that a “baseline level of respect” is a desirable approach to the forum but part of that is to realize that your own opinion and use case is not necessarily common for the majority of users or even a large group of users. Without some kind of poll or market research you wouldn’t really know.

We often see this kind of comments in here, where a user, directly or indirectly, claim that he/she represent a large portion of the users.

My question was simply a question. How does the poster know what others want or how they use Scrivener?

Why not simply state it as ones own opinion or wish? Why present an unsubstantiated claim that you are the spokesman of multitudes of users?

Not sure if the new PencilKit add-on that Apple makes available to developers would mean apple pencil functionality could be integated into Scrivener more easily?

https://9to5mac.com/2019/06/06/pencilkit-apple-wwdc/
[/quote]
I do remember that I once asked if Scrivener iOS could have highlighting in a PDF, just like the Mac version. The answer was then no, because on iOS Apple’s included PDF API (or something) was very basic and if Scrivener wanted more, they would have to write their own code, which I understand wasn’t worth it. Maybe the Pencil API includes the markup to PDF stuff (no I’m not a developer so I don’t know if what I am saying is stupid or not) and then we could potentially use the pen to highlight sentences in a PDF for research.

PS: I am enjoying the discussion, even if it’s purely hypothetical.

Let us also not fall victim to the fallacy that all opinions are equally valid.

“Opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge; it requires no accountability, no understanding. The highest form of knowledge, according to George Eliot, is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another’s world. It requires profound, purpose-larger-than-the-self kind of understanding.”

– Bill Bullard

If we were discussing, say, the logistics of supplying Apple with the supply chain necessary to build iPhones, I suspect that a lot of our opinions would qualify as uninformed (or at best under-informed), since I doubt any of us in this forum have spent time growing expertise in that knowledge domain. We could have an enjoyable discussion in our ignorance, but once someone who actually had expertise in that area joined in, our ability to contribute meaningfully to the conversation would be markedly diminished. One can be gentle and diplomatic about it, but at the end of the day, that conversation would involve a lot of extra effort communicating with those whose opinions about the topic do not carry weight and are not willing to invest the effort to learn.

Some of us find that extra effort to be disrespectful to those whose opinions are informed. It is a tax on their time and attention to demand equal consideration for uninformed opinions, especially as the the effort they take to educate the others is repeated again and again and again – either because those with the uninformed opinions don’t understand (or don’t want to understand because it means conceding that their idea is improbable) or because new people join in without bothering to read what has come before and demand the same attempt at remedial education.

All of that is fine if you ask for it…but here, in the L&L forums, given the clearly stated staff policy, this conversation should not be held in the technical support forum. There is a place for this kind of idle discussion outside of the forums where the support staff are trying to get their jobs done – I believe that the Latte / Software & Development forum would be ideal, no?

Maybe Software & Development or Wish List is better, I don’t know. That being said, let’s keep the discussion going. Apple also announced iCloud Folder Sharing. You can open multiple instances of one app now. I’m very curious to see what this all means for extra possibilities for Scrivener.

:open_mouth:
Maybe the forum should have a new category for “uninformed guesses and opinions” where the discussion could be kept going in one single thread, without limits and without too much complicating contact with reality? :smiley:

Jeez, seeing the reactions, it seems this place has become a hostile place for discussion… That’s not a nice way of discussing things.

Where did you see hostility? :open_mouth:

A thread that started as: “Hey, Apple announced all these new features on a platform on which a young version of Scrivener runs, what could that mean for the future features of that software?”

The responses, I quote…

So pretty much the answers and questions of people here have been called uninformed, and unrespectful. Even if I said I don’t expect immediate answers from the developers themselves (although they could chime in if they want to and have been playing with iOS 13), and I didn’t demand anything, expect a discussion on future POTENTIAL. People who wanted to contribute to the discussion talked about ANNOUNCED features by Apple (not uninformed guesses), and referring to new EXISTING API’s that MAYBE could mean something for Scrivener, and to concrete answers by L&L in the past on why features weren’t on iOS and how the new developments in iOS 13 could maybe change that?
Instead, that discussion has been called unrespectful, uninformed and without contact to reality. Yes, I think that feels hostile on a forum that is meant to discuss topics, not to stop any discussion.

I agreed maybe the thread would be better suited for another subforum (see my previous post). I’ll let a moderator decide those things. And if the L&L team doesn’t want any discussion, that’s fine, this is their home after all. I’m just surprised by the harsh words used in the responses to people who could just chose to disengage with a discussion if they are not interested or don’t think it’s fruitful.