vic-k wrote:
saoir, or Michael, 'tis Michael, isn’t it?
I don’t see a post by a Michael.
You won’t. That was me being smartarsed. As you well know. Saoir has an Irish look to it. As do my in-laws, all of whom are proficient to one degree or another, in the use of Gaelic. Without thinking too hard about it, what seems to be the most common name amongst the male members of the clans that constitute my ‘in-laws’, is: Michael; Mike; Mikey; Mickey and Mick. So, ‘Michael’, is me adding two and two together and coming up with something twixt three and seven. Of course, my apologies, if you happen to be an Aoife; Gráine; Niamh; Sháuna; or even, Saoirse.
Do you consider yourself too good for “writing groups” to be of any use to you?
Are you saying that to me ? Or have you posted to the wrong thread ? I should’ve thought the answers to those questions are patently obvious. I’ll rephrase the question, though. Given that: “…after a lifetime of enjoying casual writing, and a reputation for good writing in many different situations.” appears to allude to a certain degree of innate/acquired proficiency, do you consider yourself so far along the road of burgeoning author-dom that you don’t need the sevices of the likes of writing groups/classes? while: “I have read a LOT of stories about people asking friends or people in the business to read a sample of their writing to see what they think. At first I though yeah that’s a good idea. Then I asked an in-law who was a published writer and poet. He came back and told me I use sentences that are far too long.
The thing is. I couldn’t see what he meant. I couldn’t see how it was the case. Did you ask him to explain to you why he considered your sentences to be too long? Did he offer you the rationale in substantiation of his opinion; present a reasoned argument in defense of his critique? That put me off the whole thing for more than ten years. <–Indicates, p’rhaps, a possible, over sensitivity to criticism? Not Joking… Deadly serious.
Since then I have reread these and more stories about what some people do and become more and more jaundiced about the whole principle of the idea. I see people publishing excerpts online to get opinions. I see people going to writing classes and reading out excerpts for opinions.
Ad yet I cannot get away from believing that it is a deeply misguided thing to do. We have absolutely no idea what tastes in reading these people have. What misconceptions they have. We have no idea what ‘good’ means to them, or how it related to what ‘good’ means to us, or to someone else.
You’re disparaging 
of most avenues at your disposal for seeking criticism.
Except… Whilst vociferously insisting that you don’t want to know if he LIKES your novel, any one having read your posts will point out to you that, as far as your exec buddy is concerned, there is no room for doubting that, according to you, he does, since his initial reaction was to be impressed, and to ask for more. No indication from you, as to his response to your: “… tell me if there are any fractures in how I write. Anything that he feels is a ‘problem’. Is my quoting ok, are my characters not credible.”
How do you know that your exec buddy’s opinions are any more valid than those you would’ve received from a writing group, at your local library, for instance?
I don’t recall ever inferring that. Ididn’t infer that you did. But it’ is implicit in your enthusiastic endorsement of him for the job, that he is your critic of choice. I would proffer that, that endorsement is very much influenced by the fact that the critic has already expressed an admiration for your first time literary endeavor.
You as a member of the aforementioned group, would have the opportunity to pose those exact same questions to the group members, having first presented them with the rationale behind them. It is possible that you would have received a variety of answers, all with something positive to add (as in ‘constructive’), and pertinent to your initial request.
It is ‘possible’. But it is also ‘possible’ that I might receive some useless and damaging answers, considering the people in such a group could be fans of completely different genres or even inept or rude at how they would respond.
If you extrapolate in that same vein, at the same rate, from: "But it is also ‘possible’, you will effectively rid the Cosmos of any entity capable of meaningful, constructive criticism.
Before you throw the rule book through the window, it’s advisable to understand those rules, and the purpose they serve.
We must be talking at cross purposes here … If you so choose?
…what rules are you taking about ? The rules proffered by most competent grammarians, and literary critics pertaining to the accepted norms and standard, regarding serious literary endeavour. And wasn’t it you who wrote above “if you follow all the rules, all the time, you will write the same novel as every other rule follower.” Yes. With emphasis on, all of the rules–all of the time. The bending, twisting and/or abandoning of this or that rule, for this or that purpose, on this or that occasion, is a concept widely, though not universally, encouraged throughout the literary cesspit.
? or was that someone else using your name ? Don’t be silly. But you, with your browbeating of potential critics, to do this-n-that… but not the other, don’t seem able to accept that there are many forms of legit criticism that you may be in need of. What will you do if your buddy tells you your work, " is a masterpiece-in-the making."? I’m not taking the piss there! "“You just have to curb your propensity for too long sentences.” I really would like to read your response to that question.
As Ahab pointed out, with his editor’s hat on, if you had presented a script to an editor with, “Who’s opinion”, as opposed to “Whose opinion?”, that editor could, or would, depending on the mood he was in, lob it straight onto the slush pile. As a member of a writing group, it’s inconceivable that someone in that group wouldn’t have pointed out your error. Actually, Ahab pointed to the error, and I added the possible consequences. A common, but sloppy mistake, yours, not mine, but no comment on your part when Ahab pointed it out, or when I did. Why’s that? We won’t talk about slush piles again.
You seem to be grooming your critics, to present their critiques as you want to hear them, not the way they would naturally present them. The essence of those critiques could be misconstrued… Positively or negatively.
There wouldn’t be so much noise in the thread, if you’d done as I asked, and thrown the first chapter up here, so we can see what all the fuss is about. I was actually looking forward to reading this, and anticipating being impressed, when I first posted that, earlier in the thread..
Waitinanticipating
Vic
Well I haven’t read this much utter drivel for quite a long time. Interesting to find that it pops up in supposedly classy forums like this and not just in trash piles. Fair comment, soair, would you like to highlight any points in support of your statement?
Take care
Vic
PS There was a comment I included in an earlier post, but removed it, because I couldn’t decide if it was wrong. It was to do with my sensing an underlying arrogance to your posts. I’m still not sure if I should have left it in.
I’d like to add some thoughts on the qualities of readers and writers. It’s a delicate topic, fraught with pitfalls, and absolutely crucial to a writer’s confidence, but there are no guarantees or sure-fire formulas concerning reader reactions.