Why I don't trust Dropbox and what the Scrivener developer can do about it.

Scrivener Scrivener for macOS
21

Thanks for the advice and points to consider.

I don’t use iCloud Desktop and Documents: I linked only to show the type of icons available.

I need to check Finder to see if everything has synced, although I have grown to trust it, unless putting the Mac to sleep. I check before sleeping, as I used to do with Dropbox.

Yes, a change to a single file (even a Scrivener autosave) means the icon changes to show the update being made.

Yes, icons for every single file, however many folders deep.

A manual save or an autosave triggers an immediate sync.

A change to a big file that is already syncing just syncs again.

Yes, Keith says iCloud Drive is perfectly safe to use…

literatureandlatte.com/foru … 05#p244405

…and in my experience, he is right.

22

That doesn’t help when iCloud no longer updates anything. To me it seems that i loud has become a bit too smart. When problems arise, not even Apple can cure it.

23

Luckily, I’ve not experienced that.

24

I have, since mid april. I even tested a clean install on one of my Mac:s, resulting in not having access to any iCloud files at all from that computer.
Dropbox works perfectly…

25

Wish I had a solution to offer. But, sadly…

26

That’s not entirely true. If you turn off “optimize storage”, it will download files as soon as they’re available, not just when the user tries to open them.

27

It’s not a matter of the icon on the file, it’s a matter of not knowing which files might be syncing, and having to view those files yourself in the Finder. Apple should have an indicator in the menu bar that shows the overall status of the system, just like they do for Time Machine, WiFi and so on. It’s no less important than these things, to know that if you switch your computer off right now, something somewhere isn’t going to be up to date.

I understand there is a sidebar icon. I don’t remember the last time I ever used a sidebar in a Finder window, but I’m probably a bit weird in that regard. It still means you have to have Finder in the foreground with a window open that shows the sidebar and the iCloud entry added to the sidebar. Even with these default settings, it suffers from the out of sight out of mind problem.

What I will say for iCloud though is that its conflict resolution is a bit nicer for package formats like Scrivener. Rather than duplicating internal files, it asks you which package to keep from which system, or to keep both and sort it out yourself.

28

Yes, a menu-bar icon would be useful.

You don’t need the sidebar open in Finder as each iCloud folder/file has its own status icon (if enabled). I put all my Scrivener projects in a master folder on iCloud Drive. Any project (buried) in that folder will cause the master folder icon to change and update, so it is as simple as Dropbox, IMO, save for the lack of a menu-bar icon (and I am happy to open Finder to check that sync is complete before I put my Mac to sleep).

Dropbox has frozen while syncing in the past. I have yet to have a stall with iCloud Drive (tempting fate). Both work very well in general. As I don’t use iOS, I don’t need Dropbox for my Scrivener projects.

29

I think this menu bar item may only work with iCloud Drive, but I’ve no idea since I use DropBox for syncing Scriv projects.

At $2.99 USD it’s not a lot to lose if it doesn’t work as you expect, so may be worth a punt.

http://www.thealchemistguild.com/icloudstatus/index.html

NB: I’ve not used it myself so try it at your own risk.

30

The Finder Status Bar also gives a clear and quick and accurate overview of what iCloud is doing.

macobserver.com/wp-content/ … 00x770.jpg

31

iCloud Drive has worked well with Scrivener for me (Mac to Mac). It’s been several months now with zero problems. I don’t use ‘Optimize Mac Storage’ or ‘Desktop & Documents Folders’.

In addition to what’s been posted, you can also monitor iCloud Drive’s activity at Finder’s Status Bar and in Icon View. See here:
osxdaily.com/2017/06/22/watch-ic … gress-mac/

For quick access to iCloud Drive’s folder, rather than enter it at Finder’s preference––New Finder window shows––I’ve added iCloud Drive app to the Dock. See here:
osxdaily.com/2017/12/29/add-iclo … -dock-mac/

32

How robust is iCloud for Windows? Given the…stability…of past Apple software for Windows (not to mention life span; Apple is the only major company to kill Windows software faster than Microsoft these days), I would not want to trust Scrivener docs being synced cross-platform on iCloud. That’s where Dropbox retains the advantage, IMHO, despite all of its many flaws.

33

Thanks, And this,

iCloud Drive.jpg
iCloud Drive.jpg940×916 118 KB

34

There is a very nice iCloud Drive utility that has recently been released by the wonderful eclecticlight:

eclecticlight.co/2018/05/19/cir … neral-use/

It allows you to check status and functioning of iCloud drive files.

My experience running both Dropbox and iCloud (not on the same file obviously) is is that iCloud is far less reliable. Even with the fact Dropbox is totally blocked in China and I have to go through a VPN, sync always occurs immediately and is totally dependable. iCloud (250GB paid option, optimize storage and desktop and documents OFF) infuriatingly syncs sometimes immediately, sometimes it takes minutes, or occasionally just doesn’t bother! Cirrus hopefully should help identify what the actual individual status is going forwards. But (as much as I dislike the company itself) I will grudgingly keep renewing my Dropbox annual subscription until I find a replacement that is anywhere nearly as reliable and ubiquitously supported as Dropbox is.

35

That looks rather more useful than the one I suggested upthread.

Exactly my experience. I’ve used DropBox for a long time and never had any problems with it. I’m fortunate that in DropBox early days I was able to build up a reasonable storage quota via recommendations and since I only use it for live projects am able to manage without a subscription.

iCloud does have the advantage of lower storage tiers at lower prices but its quirkiness and unreliability kill it for me. DropBox and for that matter, Box and Sync, do what it says on the package although neither of the latter are recommended for use with live Scriv projects. iCloud seems designed more to push you towards supporting Apple’s policy of selling devices with minimal local storage, everything else being stored in the cloud.

36

I can’t help being intrigued by the title of the thread…

“Why I don’t trust Dropbox and what the Scrivener developer can do about it.”

Interesting question, but slightly impossible. I mean, what can Keith do to increase the posters trust in Dropbox? :smiley:

37

There’s trust and trust. If the OP doesn’t trust Dropbox because it’s unreliable and fails to work, that’s one thing that perhaps/maybe KB could do something about by tweaking the way Scriv interacts with the Dropbox APIs.

If on the other hand it is a matter of, “I don’t trust them because it’s not end to end encryption and they might sneak a look at my next best seller and anyway Condoleezza Rice was on the board which means a geen light for the spooks” there’s nothing whatever Keith or anyone else can do about it. :smiley:

38

I’m glad I’m not the only one who finds this to be true. iCloud (and now iCloud Drive) has stunk since it was introduced. I’m stuck with it for some apps just by virtue of choosing to be in the Apple ecosystem, but danged if I’ll pay for it, or depend on it almost exclusively for my cloud storage needs.

In this regard, it’s instructive to consider where a cloud provider’s primary revenue comes from:

  • Apple: Hardware sales and media subscriptions.
  • Google: Advertising. OS licensing.
  • Microsoft: See Apple. Add software subscriptions and OS licensing.
  • Dropbox, Box, Sync: Cloud storage rental.

Come to think of it, I could move some more stuff out of iCloud. I’ll do that tomorrow.

39

Since Sync was brought up––as Tacitus said, Sync doesn’t recommend its service for live projects. I’ve asked Sync specifically about Scrivener and included Keith’s explanation from here:
literatureandlatte.com/foru … 05#p244405

On the other hand, xiamenese, a long-time scrivanato, has posted on the forum that that’s how he successfully uses it. That’s just one user’s experience, but for me, he’s a highly credible source.

I’m in the early stages of testing Sync with positive results so far (Mac to Mac). There’s more management capability and available features than iCloud Drive––including zero-knowledge, archive capability and versatile collaboration. If/when I get to the point of greater trust of the service’s ability to sync live projects, it’ll be trust placed partially because of my continually present back up regime––something we all must have in place for whichever service we use.

Of course, the safer alternative method of ’syncing’ projects can be used as explained about half way down here:
scrivener.tenderapp.com/help/kb … c-services

40

Well, personally, I experience this issue with iCloud every single time I use it for a large file.

For instance I place a copy of a file in folder set to sync with iCloud. I back up Logic Pro X projects all the time, and they can be 1.5 GB or so.

As soon as I place the 1.5 GB copy there, if I check iCloud, it sees the file, transfers it (or begins), and indicates that, for instance, 961 MB of that file still needs to be transferred to iCloud. Instantly.

I don’t believe that for a second. Asymmetrical transfers mean uploads are done at a fraction of download speeds. 549 MB does not upload instantly. It’s not possible.

Then, it continues to say ‘961’, either for 20 minutes or so, or permanently. If it still says ‘961’ after half an hour, which it often does, and I close the laptop in disgust, then open it later, the transfer will have completed. Updating the Finder window manually does not alter this behavior.

The point it it never gives an accurate indication of the transfer. For a file that is large, this is always the way it works.

I also regularly have trouble using iCloud to move files of maybe 40 MB from one computer to another. I put a copy of the file in a iCloud-shared folder, it indicates that it has begun transferring, yet it never (in the next 20 minutes) appears available on the second computer, even though it appears to be there when looking at iCloud from the computer it was originally on. It might not even appear as grayed-out in the Finder of that computer, indicating that transfer is in progress.

I know, there are other, better ways to accomplish that, but a thumb drive turns out to be the easiest and most reliable. I have these regular issues where a 40 MB file doesn’t seem to appear for a long time, yet a 1 GB file might appear in under 5 minutes. Off-sight transfer is complex, I know, but DropBox seems to not have these issues.