Huh?
If you are part of the existing user base then, by definition, you have a Scrivener 2 license already. You can download Scrivener 2 whenever you want, for as long as your hardware supports it. Both this forum and our support address will continue to work. So exactly what is the issue here?
Katherine
No, a version 3 license cannot be used with version 2. (Nor can a version 2 license be used with version 1.) Since the project formats are incompatible, why would you want to?
Katherine
Katherine,
you’re missing one essential point of Graybyrd’s post.
Existing version 2 users will not be abandoned but there will be no new version 2 users once the version 3 is out, right? And this is what makes those that stay on version 2 the feeling that they are abandoned.
Personally I think one has to accept that the world changes over time and that technical development makes previous technical solutions obsolete. But what’s special with computers and software is the speed of the change. Still, from an evolutionary and developmental perspective it’s logical that a software developer wants to develop the software. Freezing it means stagnation which is the opposite of development. And for most businesses, development is crucial for long-term survival.
I see your point.
On the other hand, how many people (a) might buy Scrivener at some point, but (b) haven’t yet, and (c) will only do so if it will run on obsolete (pre-2010) hardware? And of those, how many will end up upgrading to Sierra-compatible hardware anyway for other reasons within the next six months or so?
Katherine
I agree completely, hence my concluding paragraph.
K, my interpretation, likely incorrect, was that a new user COULD do v2 and use it. But they would not be able to pitches a v2 license from esellerate. I assumed that L&L provided a method for v2 code to operate permanently with the v3 license key. In rereading the posts I see that I missed a few points about that and that there will be no new usage if v2 codebase.
As a guy who hates to buy new hardware, I do get the resistance to is upgrade. But the sticking with old things means that you don’t get the same support as you would with the new. Ex, finding anyone to work on my 1975 MG is almost an exercise in finding hens teeth. Sometimes you just need to upgrade to new platforms.
Ok, I’m provoked by this! The changes in hardware you mention encompass a 35-year timespan, assuming you regard USB as the current standard!
As for the “most recent shiny new thing”, this is also not relevant to the discussion. I run a 2011 Core i5 iMac with extra RAM that is quite capable of running Sierra, High Sierra, Pixar, Disney, or whatever the next MacOS (aka OS X) is going to be called. My reasons for staying with Mavericks are entirely software-based, not hardware. I have used Macs since 1994, and while I can still run MS-DOS, System 7, OS 8.6, and Snow Leopard on my computer to either run old software e.g. games, or simply nostalgically wallow in former experiences using Macs, plus I also have software like Dragon Dictate that would require £00’s to upgrade beyond Mavericks, and going past 10.9 would force me to use iTunes 11 or later (euwww) … I really do not think that the current annual release cycle of MacOS does any service to Mac users. Hell, there are people who still run Windows 7 (from nearly 10 years ago) rather than upgrade to Windows 10 which has been around a few years itself. “Tiger” and “Leopard” were MAJOR OS X releases that introduced hundreds of changes. Yet those two were the only OS releases between Panther (2003) and Snow Leopard (2009). By contrast, the latest MacOS annual releases are rushed and buggy, and rarely achieve their full potential before the next cycle appears. Nor have they contained many major new features - you almost get the impression that Apple struggle to dream up enough features to make users want to upgrade. (I can see the value in annual iOS changes - that’s only 10 years old and the hardware is still changing more rapidly than Macs are).
No. You’re talking ONLY about hardware. The point I was making was about SOFTWARE. My 2011 Mac could easily run Sierra but I choose to stay with Mavericks (see my post above).
What you should be asking is how many people (a) might buy Scrivener at some point, but (b) haven’t yet, and (c) will only do so if it runs on earlier versions of the Mac OS?
Very few software companies continue to sell an older version of their software when a new version is out. Scrivener 3 is the future of Scrivener - it is “Scrivener” pure and simple, the best version of it to date, not “Scrivener Plus” or “Scrivener 64” or anything else. No one will be forced to upgrade. Scrivener 2 will continue to work forever on all the platforms it has ever supported, up to and including High Sierra, and you’ll be able to download it from our site for many years to come. So accusations of us throwing an established user base on the trash are unfair and ungrounded. If you decide to update to the OS that comes after High Sierra, you will need to buy Scrivener 3, but that’s user choice and to be expected. We will continue to support users of Scrivener 2 - we just won’t be selling it any more because it will be superseded by Scrivener 3, just as we no longer sell Scrivener 1.
As for running on earlier versions of macOS, that’s a trade-off we had to make to set us in good stead for the future. In the short term we might be limiting ourselves a little, since only around 50% of Mac users use the latest OS, but supporting libraries older than Sierra has negative implications and within a couple of years that percentage will be up. We had to make a choice about how to ensure Scrivener is geared up for the next ten years, and it’s better for us and for our users if we are building off the most recent platform when releasing a brand new version, rather than starting out the gate with compromises caused by legacy code. A brand new version is one of the main opportunities to shed such legacy code.
I don’t disagree about Apple rushing out yearly macOS updates (I’d prefer they still did them every two or three years and made them more stable - the current convention seems more about building hype each year than providing a truly solid base for users and developers, but users seem to like it and that’s out of our hands). However, Scrivener 2 has been supported on over ten different iterations of macOS, from 10.4 up to and including 10.13. That’s a lot more than most software. Now it’s time for us to move on to the next phase. Fortunately, outside of this thread, most users seem to be excited about that. 
The complaints on this thread baffle me. When have L&L ever abandoned their user base, or given the impression they ever will? Are people really getting bent out of shape because this company is planning for 10 years down the road? Incredible. Having written two books in Scrivener and many other smaller items, I hope that I am still using it in 10 years
The business plan seems to me to be perfectly sound. I still use MS Office for Mac 2011. It’s still supported. But MS won’t sell it to me on their website. Fair enough
Apparently my post was too long, too complex, and too confusing. It has been completely misinterpreted and somewhat demonized. Let me clarify.
Apple still sells OSX 10.6 Snow Leopard. Last year I purchased and installed that on a used Mac Mini. I also run the latest version of DEVONThink Pro that will run on 10.6, licensed under their “legacy” provision. It was available for download on their site, and available for license. I upgrade-licensed several other “legacy” apps in the same manner, all for OSX 10.6.
Why such a Luddite, “stagnant”, non-progressive approach?
Because Apple, in my opinion has ENFORCED an upgrade path that increasingly produces fewer user productivity benefits, focused instead on increased corporate return. I’ve elected to stay with an investment that yields maximum productivity and return for my purposes. I don’t criticize those who upgrade every release; why do so many of you feel entitled to denigrate those of us who settle for a proven setup? (Our household runs the LATEST version of Linux on two laptops and two desktop machines. I upgrade those installations weekly with the latest released patches. Those are our PRIMARY systems. In my opinion, both Windows and Apple OS are no longer fit for purpose as productive household systems. Their major focus has shifted to mobile, hand-held systems.)
I agree that Keith and Lit&Lat must stay on Apple’s dictated path. And at least half the user base is staying up with Apple’s latest hardware and OS releases.
But… and here is my point (my ONLY point) and my criticism.
If L&L refuses to do as DEVONthink and others have done, and will not sell a license for Scriv2 so a 32-bit Apple OS user can install and use Scrivener on a legacy system, then that constitutes shutting the door on that class of user. That’s your business choice. But to claim that it is a “burden” to sell a new Scriv2 license is a bit disingenuous. If Scriv2 runs perfectly well on a 32-bit system today, why won’t it run just as well, without additional updating or support, tomorrow, next year, or the year after? Illogical, Scotty!
So if anyone, for whatever reason, purchases a legacy Mac system and seeks to install Scrivener… they’re excluded. That’s my point. Other software houses will license legacy versions; L&L has chosen not to.
(Postscript: We purchased licenses for both Mac and Windows versions of Scrivener. We run the Windows version under continuously updated versions of WINE for Linux. We do this for convenience; happily, Scrivener does run well for us under WINE… so far. Knock on wood. Luddite? Stagnant? I don’t think so.)
According to the DevonTechnologies page, DevonThink Pro version 2.7.6 will run with OS X 10.6, so a 2.x DTP license would be appropriate. This is analogous to the current situation with Scrivener, where a newly purchased Scrivener 2 license will work with Scrivener 2.5, providing support all the way back to OS X 10.4. Here, the situation between the two programs is comparable.
What I do not, see, however, is a place on DevonThink Pro’s page where one can purchase a new license for DTP version 1.x. Nor do I see any information about their plans, if any, for DTP 3.
So I’m not sure how this example supports your claim that DevonTechnologies is providing “better” support for legacy systems.
Katherine
DTP’s legacy downloads are here:
devontechnologies.com/download/legacy.html
Versions even older available – “only on request.”
Considering Scriv’s market of impecunious writers and students, Devon’s policy is worth some consideration for L&L.
Rgds - Jerome
Please explain how Scrivener’s legacy support is different?
Scrivener 2.8.1 will work with all versions of OS X back to 10.9.
Scrivener 2.5 will work from OS X 10.4 through 10.8.
Scrivener 1.54 will work from OS X 10.4 through 10.6.
Scrivener did not exist prior to OS X 10.4.
literatureandlatte.com/download_mac.php
Katherine
“If you are an existing customer…” (Scriv) vs
“legacy versions of our apps to use on older computers.” (Devon)
Pretty confident these Scriv legacy downloads will stay around after 3.0 to support steam-powered Mac users who experience a glitch. The concern for some users on this thread is that they won’t be available for license.
Rgds - Jerome
The license currently for sale on DevonThink’s site says that it supports OS X 10.9 or greater.
Have you personally tested that license with 1.x versions of DTP or can you point me to a page that confirms it will work?
I have nothing against DevonTechnologies. I use several of their products. But I’m not seeing any real difference between their legacy support and ours.
Katherine
L&L is not DEVONthink (although others in the thread previously have dealt nicely with that comparison).
L&L is selling licenses for Scriv2 and will until Scriv3 is released. All of those users are a potential point of support. Anyone who wants to buy a new Scrivener license once v3 is released will have to buy it for v3, but EVERYONE who has an existing v2 license still gets to use their license. They’re not blocking anyone from installing Scriv2 on a 32-bit legacy system provided they already have the license.
Why WOULD they want new users to buy a v2 license? That’s a separate code base. That’s a separate version of the program. Based on the archived interactions in the forum, that’s another X YEARS of people asking how to do “X” and getting told “you can’t do that in v2,” of finding themselves second-class citizens because the Scrivener world has moved on. They want to reduce that population as quickly as possible, not let it increase! (You brought up Linux and WINE – look at how many people STILL demand support on a version that was CLEARLY marked as unsupported, put out as one last bit of goodwill to the Linux community. Now multiply that.)
Nobody is saying you don’t have the right to keep your legacy installs. But that’s just it – they’re legacy. You have the right to not keep up with the latest and greatest for whatever reason you find compelling and nobody has the right to tell you differently (although we do the have the right to explain why we don’t agree with your reason). However, you don’t have the right to demand that L&L support your particular scenario, either, if they have run the numbers and decided that it doesn’t make financial sense to do so.
You and I have no clue of what the finances are to support Scrivener. (Well, I can make some semi-educated guesses, but that’s all they would be.) I can say from my own experience that supporting multiple, highly different versions of the same program is a lot of work, and the companies that willingly do that sort of thing USUALLY CHARGE EXTRA for support.
If this was a $1,000 program, or you paid $X a year for support, you might have a point. But US$45 one-time? Mate, that doesn’t give anyone the right to perpetual sales and support for 2.x – especially for people who choose to use a version that depends on an old, deliberately rotting OS platform.
A question, for clarification:
If L&L decide to continue to sell v2 licenses, can they do so without having to maintain some sort of support function for it? Doesn’t selling a product require that you also maintain some sort of support for it?
I would expect most future support questions regarding v2 to be answered “that has been solved in the new version 3”. Do you think a future new v2 buyer with at legacy system would accept such an answer?
Surprising to see negativity. Scrivener 3 sounds like it addresses the concerns I have with version 2 (style sheets!!), so I’m going to be an early adopter.
If I knew the moment L&L’s website would start taking payments for version 3, I’d set my alarm clock for any hour to get it on the instant of release (with style sheets!!!).
Hmmm… If I set an alarm for every hour I could get V3 as much as a half-day quicker. Twenty-three more wind-up Big Ben alarm clocks, that’s the answer.
Tick-tick-tick-tick…
Sound points. I find Scrivener 2 does a whole lot of stuff that no other software does, and does it well. My only problem is when users say things like “Oh, that’s a bug caused by Apple, which will be sorted out in Scrivener 3” or “Can’t wait until S3 is released!!” If my entire software life was based upon Scrivener, I’d upgrade to Sierra, but I NEED Dragon Dictate and can’t afford the newer version, and I use iTunes 10 a LOT. Admittedly I can use Photoshop CS6 and could probably upgrade to CC if I wanted to, but I can still use iPhoto and Elements 6, and don’t use Office anymore.
I also don’t agree with Keith that “users seem to like the annual release of Mac OS”. It’s one of the commonest complaints online among both users and experts. They DO seem to like the annual release of iPhones and iOS and I understand that. As for MacOS, now it’s moved exclusively to 64-bit (the original premise of Snow Leopard), all it needs is a touch interface which it could achieve via a Magic Trackpad, or the new supersize Macbook trackpad (… perhaps that’s what it has in mind … ?) and it would be pretty much perfect in terms of modern users interfacing with social media.
Microsoft brings many fewer upgrades to Windows (there was no Windows 9, so 10 is the 9th 
) while there have been 21 for Mac and High Sierra will be 22.