Backup inconsistencies

[kewms]

If the correct version of the project is on the local system, and is not on a connected device, then Dropbox has failed to synchronize. Why? Who knows? Your internet connection could have failed. You could have shut down the system more quickly than usual, interrupting the transfer. A Mac OS update could have disabled synchronization without your knowledge. As I’ve said before, the transfer from your Mac to the Dropbox server and from there to other devices is entirely Dropbox’s responsibility.

So, the point at which your process went off the rails was step 5, where you deleted the local copy from your Mac and started investigating this as a Scrivener issue, rather than a Dropbox issue. When and if you discover a Dropbox synchronization error, a more effective troubleshooting procedure would be something like this:

1. On whichever system has the correct version of the project, make a backup to a location that Dropbox does not control.
   1a) If you have multiple conflicting versions on multiple systems, make backups of all of them. You can resolve the conflicts later, once you’ve got synchronization working again.

2. Create an ordinary text file in the Dropbox folder on that system. Synchronize as normal.

3. Use your browser to login to your account at dropbox.com. Is the text file there? If so, proceed to step 4. If not, use Dropbox’s troubleshooting tools to figure out why not.

4. Synchronize each of your devices in turn, and confirm that the text file appears. If it does, proceed to step 5. If not, use Dropbox’s troubleshooting tools to figure out why not.

5. You have now established that the connection between each of the local devices and the Dropbox server is working correctly. Go back to the original system, and make a small but obvious change to your project. I like creating a TEST FILE at the top of the Binder. (Or, if it’s a large project or you’re feeling unsure, create a test project.) Synchronize as normal.

OPTIONAL: Login to the dropbox server and confirm that the new file is there. This is more obvious with a test project. It requires a little knowledge of the project format if you just created a new file in an existing project. DON’T change anything.

6. Synchronize each of the connected devices in turn and confirm that the new file appears. If it does, proceed to Step 7. If not, proceed to the troubleshooting link I posted earlier.

7. Everything is working fine. Get back to work.

Katherine

[kewms]

@John Ashmore

I had once or twice made the error of not waiting (in the first week of use of Scrivener about a month ago) and Scrivener is quite good at catching and warning about it (conflicts and conflict folders). This is not the same problem at all, unfortunately.

Just to clarify this point, the lack of conflict warnings DOES NOT guarantee that synchronization was successful. It only confirms that no conflicts exist in the project. If a change made on Computer A fails to transfer to Computer B for whatever reason, Computer B will proceed blithely onward with no awareness of the problem, secure in the belief that its copy of the project is fine. You will only see a warning if you then transfer Computer B’s changes back to Computer A.

Katherine

[John_Ashmore]

Thank you Katherine - great troubleshooting advice. Hopefully I’m in the clear now, but I will try that if ever I have this problem again.

Just so this thread doesn’t seem all negative on my part , I should say that I did extensive research into writing apps before trying the tutorial irregularly throughout the summer. I purchased the desktop version and converted a long Word MS first, and used Scrivener for a couple of weeks before transferring and ‘converting’ the others and purchasing the iOS version. And notwithstanding the trouble I have had (which is, quite admittedly, dropbox’s issues, not Scrivener’s, as you pointed out), I LOOOOOOOVE the software.

I have finished an outline of a half completed project using the binder’s files and folders and the inspector’s synopsis and notes. Once in place, the structure jumped out at me and I resolved a number of issues almost straight away. Seeing the project like this is invaluable. I am a very visual person and it’s a perfect way of organizing things. I never thought an app would be so useful - and, strangely, inspiring.

Obviously, losing work, or the fear of losing work, is very distressing. I am still concerned, but thank you for your thorough and thoughtful replies. I am away from home working a lot, and I like to write and take notes on flights, which is why the syncing for me is so important, and one of the main reasons I chose Scrivener (before I was aware of its other strengths).

I have a few more minor issues and anomalies to address, but they are less pressing and I will open new threads for them when I have the time.

Thanks,

John Ashmore

[lunk]

@John Ashmore

So I can only guess that my iMac is loading the manuscript from the local dropbox app

… and this was just a mix up of words and you mean folder? On you iMac hard drive?

[John_Ashmore]

@lunk

@John Ashmore

So I can only guess that my iMac is loading the manuscript from the local dropbox app

… and this was just a mix up of words and you mean folder? On you iMac hard drive?

Yes - apologies. Still learning the terminology. The app creates the folder and displays it in the finder. The manuscript was loading from the ‘local’ folder.

thanks,

John Ashmore

[lunk]

@John Ashmore

The app creates the folder and displays it in the finder. The manuscript was loading from the ‘local’ folder.

The app creates the folder on your hard drive so it’s not a ’local’ folder but a local folder like any other.

[mbbntu]

@John Ashmore

Obviously, losing work, or the fear of losing work, is very distressing.

Make LOTS of backups Particularly make use of Time Machine or a service like Backblaze or Crashplan, or whatever it is called now.

I have never lost a single word while using Scrivener, since version 1.?? But a hard drive can fail at any moment.

[John_Ashmore]

@mbbntu

@John Ashmore

Obviously, losing work, or the fear of losing work, is very distressing.

Make LOTS of backups Particularly make use of Time Machine or a service like Backblaze or Crashplan, or whatever it is called now.

I have never lost a single word while using Scrivener, since version 1.?? But a hard drive can fail at any moment.

Yeah, indeed. I use Time Machine, back up my entire writing folder on another drive, and send email copies to myself after every writing session. From this email, I make a copy on my laptop, then run Time machine on that…

So careful I should have an assistant to manage the backups!!

cheers,

John Ashmore

[John_Ashmore]

Oh no…

It happened again…

I wrote 3k words yesterday on my imac. Closed scrivener. Watched sync finish.

Repeat today, exactly the same. All devices said synced and up to date in dropbox folders and in IOS.

One hr later, manually synced my phone and opened the project. Yesterday’s work was there, but NOTHING from today. Not one word.

Opened my laptop and verified that everything in the dropbox folder was synced then opened The project in Scrivener:

Same as the phone… yesterday’s work intact, not one word from today’s 3 thousand plus words…

Then I tried my imac and the project opened intact, with my work from both days in place.

I have followed to the letter all the advice here (that I was actually already doing) and the problem randomly resurfaced one out of two of the days of work…

At this point I guess I am juat reporting it FYI. Maybe I’ll try dropbox tech support.

Frustrated and concerned,

John Ashmore

[kewms]

See my troubleshooting advice upthread. – Katherine

[lunk]

Did you look at the Dropbox status by clicking on its icon in the menu bar? And check the server via the web interface, from your iMac?

There can really only be two things causing this. Either your iMac is not communicating with the Dropbox server, or you (unknowingly?) did a Save as… of the newly edited project in a different folder than the one your other devices are looking into.

[John_Ashmore]

@kewms

See my troubleshooting advice upthread. – Katherine

I did the test suggested after rereading your upthread post. I assumed that by:

“2) Create an ordinary text file in the Dropbox folder on that system. Synchronize as normal”,

you meant an ordinary Scrivener text file/project. Is this what you meant? And by “Synchronize as normal”, you meant simply close Scrivener, correct? My understanding is that Scrivener automatically syncs to dropbox when it closes, updating the local dropbox AND the one on the server (enabling one to access the project automatically from another device via its local dropbox which has synced to the the one on the server).

Am I correct in all this? These have been my assumptions and to the best of my recollection what I have read in all the documentation.

Back to the test file: When I created the test file in scrivener and closed it, it never appeared in my dropbox folder in my finder…

So I did another test. I opened scrivener on my iMac, on which today’s writing was done. It opened my project with ALL MY CHANGES INTACT. Then I closed Scrivener, confirmed that the green checkmark indicating sync complete was there, then waited 5 mins just to be safe. Then when I opened the version DIRECTLY from my finder dropbox folder, the changes DID NOT appear.

So I think… the problem is that when I close Scrivener it is not syncing to my local dropbox in my finder. If so, when I open scrivener and it automatically opened the version WITH the changes, from where was it opening the project? From a backup?

If this is the case, do you have any advice for me regarding Scrivener backing up to my local iMac dropbox folder? As I said, it appears that it is not ALWAYS syncing it automatically upon closing the Scrivener app… Clearly it does sometimes, or when i opened it directly from the dropbox finder folder BOTH day’s work would have been missing. The first day was there, but today’s work was not. So the problem seems to be intermittent, leading me to conclude that it is not a setting that needs correcting.

Thank you again for taking the time and I apologize. I am trying my best to be as clear as possible, but forums lead to so many misunderstandings…

I hope you can help and I hope these tests have clarified the problem.

Thanks,

John Ashmore

[John_Ashmore]

@lunk

Did you look at the Dropbox status by clicking on its icon in the menu bar? And check the server via the web interface, from your iMac?

There can really only be two things causing this. Either your iMac is not communicating with the Dropbox server, or you (unknowingly?) did a Save as… of the newly edited project in a different folder than the one your other devices are looking into.

hmmm… maybe you’re on to something.

Before closing Scrivener, I did a “save as” into my SCRIVENER MANUAL BACKUP folder that I use as a precaution. Would this mean that when I subsequently closed Scrivener it WOULD NOT sync automatically with dropbox…?

It would be odd if it didn’t (and would mean I could not do manual backups(?)), but your comment led me to think of this.

Thanks,
John Ashmore

[John_Ashmore]

@John Ashmore

@lunk

Did you look at the Dropbox status by clicking on its icon in the menu bar? And check the server via the web interface, from your iMac?

There can really only be two things causing this. Either your iMac is not communicating with the Dropbox server, or you (unknowingly?) did a Save as… of the newly edited project in a different folder than the one your other devices are looking into.

hmmm… maybe you’re on to something.

Before closing Scrivener, I did a “save as” into my SCRIVENER MANUAL BACKUP folder that I use as a precaution. Would this mean that when I subsequently closed Scrivener it WOULD NOT sync automatically with dropbox…?

It would be odd if it didn’t (and would mean I could not do manual backups(?)), but your comment led me to think of this.

Thanks,
John Ashmore

Just did a quick test. I opened the project in Scrivener and made a test file, saved a copy with the ‘Save as’ function in the drop down menu, exactly as I do to create my backups, then closed scrivener.

When i reopened it directly from the dropbox finder folder, the changes were there.

So that is not the problem…

Thanks,

John Ashmore

[kewms]

@John Ashmore

“2) Create an ordinary text file in the Dropbox folder on that system. Synchronize as normal”,

you meant an ordinary Scrivener text file/project. Is this what you meant? And by “Synchronize as normal”, you meant simply close Scrivener, correct? My understanding is that Scrivener automatically syncs to dropbox when it closes, updating the local dropbox AND the one on the server (enabling one to access the project automatically from another device via its local dropbox which has synced to the the one on the server).

Am I correct in all this? These have been my assumptions and to the best of my recollection what I have read in all the documentation.

No. I meant a TEXT file. NOT a Scrivener project or a component of one. The sort of thing you create in TextEdit.

Scrivener saves to your hard disk when it closes. Synchronizing to the Dropbox server is the responsibility of the Dropbox software, and that is apparently the step that is not taking place. The whole point of using a TEXT file is to take Scrivener out of the equation so that you can more easily determine whether Dropbox is doing its job.

Katherine

[kewms]

@John Ashmore

hmmm… maybe you’re on to something.

Before closing Scrivener, I did a “save as” into my SCRIVENER MANUAL BACKUP folder that I use as a precaution. Would this mean that when I subsequently closed Scrivener it WOULD NOT sync automatically with dropbox…?

It would be odd if it didn’t (and would mean I could not do manual backups(?)), but your comment led me to think of this.

AH HA!

DON’T use Save As. The Save As command creates a completely new copy of the project in the specified location. If that location is NOT in the Dropbox folder, then the new copy will NOT synchronize. Moreover, the old copy will NOT have any changes made after the fork.

If you want to make a manual backup, use the File → Backup → Backup To command. Check the box to make a ZIP backup, as that will make it easier to tell backups and originals apart.

Katherine

[kewms]

@John Ashmore

Just did a quick test. I opened the project in Scrivener and made a test file, saved a copy with the ‘Save as’ function in the drop down menu, exactly as I do to create my backups, then closed scrivener.

When i reopened it directly from the dropbox finder folder, the changes were there.

So that is not the problem…

The Dropbox Finder folder is a location on your hard drive. Successfully saving and re-opening a file to that location tells you that your hard drive is working correctly. It tells you NOTHING about whether Dropbox is successfully uploading it to the Dropbox server, or downloading it from there to other devices.

Katherine

[JimRac]

Hi John,

It sounds to me that most days you open the copy of your project in the DROPBOX folder, and when you do this everything syncs correctly.

But occasionally you are inadvertently and unknowingly opening a copy of your project from the SCRIVENER MANUAL BACKUP folder. Any changes you make in that BACKUP folder will not get synced to Dropbox. And that’s what’s causing the confusion.

What process do you use to open your Scrivener project? I.e., how do you know which copy your’re opening?

ETA: The backup process that Katherine suggests above to create zipped backups is the optimal process for creating Scrivener backups. If the backup is zipped, than the sort of confusion you’re experiencing can’t happen.

Jim

[kewms]

@JimRac

But occasionally you are inadvertently and unknowingly opening a copy of your project from the SCRIVENER MANUAL BACKUP folder. Any changes you make in that BACKUP folder will not get synced to Dropbox. And that’s what’s causing the confusion.

What process do you use to open your Scrivener project?

If the last project open in the previous session was the one in the manual backup folder, that is the one that would open when Scrivener restarts.

Very astute observation. I’ll bet that’s it.

Katherine

[lunk]

@John Ashmore

My understanding is that Scrivener automatically syncs to dropbox when it closes, updating the local dropbox AND the one on the server (enabling one to access the project automatically from another device via its local dropbox which has synced to the the one on the server).

Am I correct in all this?

---

So I think… the problem is that when I close Scrivener it is not syncing to my local dropbox in my finder. If so, when I open scrivener and it automatically opened the version WITH the changes, from where was it opening the project? From a backup?

No, you are not correct.

First, there IS no “dropbox”, anywhere. Okay?

Scrivener saves to a folder on hour hard drive. Whichever folder you choose. Nothing else.

If you have the Dropbox app installed and running, it creates a folder on your hard drive named Dropbox.
If you save something in that folder, the Dropbox app uploads it to the Dropbox server.

If you save something in another folder, nothing happens. There is no copying anywhere by any app.

If you use Save as… in Scrivener (as in all apps), the project you are working on gets this new name and contains all the new changes. The version with the old name, the one you opened and started working on, has none of the changes because all the changes are now in the new version you did the Save as… to which has another name.
Save as… means that you drop the original project in the state it was when you opened it and everything you’ve done since opening it is suddenly saved as a new project, with a new name. If you save it in the folder named Dropbox, the Dropbox app will upload it to the Dropbox server. If you save it somewhere else, nothing will happen with it. It will sit in the new folder simply.