Lest anyone forget, there was this same sort of distress about the release of iOS Scrivener (for 4 years, I think). And I saw mention of Scrivener 3 for Mac in the works at least three years before it was even in beta, too. And once Scriv3Mac was in beta, oh the pestering as to when the release was going to happen…
KB, I say this with the deepest respect—Please, please, don’t ever even hint as to when a targeted or projected or anything release might happen ever again. As DavidR said, “It agitates the herd.” Not even though I show up on your doorstep in Cornwall begging on my knees for the next version release date of Scrivener iOS. Ignore that crazy old American lady. Just step right over her and carry on with, “We don’t comment on release dates.”
“We don’t comment on release dates.”
Yeah, I gotta agree with this advice, but I’d add that in the future you might earmark a few of the bigger threads and say “if you want to know why we don’t comment on release dates, you can see what happens when we do and those dates are missed.” Something along those lines.
The only time to give a release date is when the whole project compiles successfully, has passed QA, and the code is locked. AND when documentation team can give you a completion date.
Every date sets an expectation. That does nothing but create stress for the developers. And if the date is missed (and it’s nearly always missed–ask any developer), the date set creates disappointment in the customer base. Everyone loses.
In fact, when Version 4 is under development (it is under development, right? ), long-time members here in the community should stand at the ready to calm down expectations all around and repeat the party line: “We do not comment on release dates.”
For myself, I’m going to remove the beta and continue using 1.9 (gotta keep 'em separated) and basically forget I ever even heard of version 3. Boy am I going to be surprised one day!
Here to register both that I understand, but am still disappointed. Unlike most of the gripers, I understand programming and being behind the 8-ball (I’ll be doing that all weekend and not writing or spending time with my family because deadlines others have failed to meet) The point is I get it. And as a developer/writer/user and all other things I ultimately do want a product that works.
But there’s a problem. Mac and Windows are drifting too much. The latest version of Mac won’t run (last I checked) Scrivener 2. And Windows won’t run Scrivener 3. That means I can’t work cross platform and haven’t been able to do it for some time. 6 months, I told myself, I could deal with.
Maybe a year, not so much.
I’d take a stable version that didn’t allow me to compile at this point, but that I could write in without having to install new betas every few months. I can compile on mac when/if I need to. But I need to be able to write on a windows machine, I just do.
Sigh. I know.
Goodluck/Godspeed/Thanks for what you’ve made so far.
You can write in the V3 Win Beta and compile safely on V3 Mac already.
You say you don’t want to constantly install new Betas, however the process can be no different to installing a point update that happens with 99% of programs from time to time. Help > Check For Updates
The few little hiccups on the beta have no impact on data integrity and the ability to write without concern other than normal prudent backups.
To the OP, seems not recommending Scrivener just because the Win V3 version is a bit late is case of cutting off nose to spite face and depriving others of the best tool for the job.
The current Win 1.9 is the best in class product currently available, works just fine, PLUS, it comes with a free update to V3 when released.
Isn’t it a bit spiteful to deprive those other writers you supposedly care about of the opportunity to use the best program out there, and get a free upgrade, just because you have a snotty over V3 being delayed a few more weeks?
I can’t describe how disappointed I was to learn yesterday of yet another missed deadline, another broken promise. And as for the developer accepting responsibility for this, what does that mean? Does it mean he won’t get paid, a loss of income? For me it does mean a loss of income, because as a professional writer I’ve delayed several projects because I wanted to do them in Scrivener—and now I’ll miss my deadlines and might not get paid. I teach creative writing, and now I no longer will be recommending Scrivener to my students.
Beobuck, I’m disappointed too. As far as I can tell “responsibility” in this case means only that we can all go out and buy voodoo dolls, name them Lee, and stick pins in them or run over them with our cars or dress them in unattractive clothing.
But did you read astaff’s post just before yours? Scrivener 1.9 works well and is stable; the only problem might be that its projects can’t be opened in the current Mac version, and vice versa. Also, many people are working successfully with the v. 3 beta. If you can get your projects done using v. 1.9, then you should be OK, eh? As for your students, much as we may be disappointed over the missed deadline (which should probably never have been publicly announced in the first place, but that’s another subject), why deprive them of a good tool that’s likely to get better by the end of the term? That’s my thought, but I’m not in your shoes.
I think the OP is quite right to not recommend Scrivener to Windows users at this time. That buy-it-now-get-a-free-upgrade-later deal has become nothing more than a bait-and-switch. If v3 is truly released in only a few more weeks, then those new users have nothing to lose by not learning about Scrivener now.
And if, as is far more likely, v3 is not released for many, many, many, many, many more weeks, then they haven’t wasted their time by getting sucked into the morass of perpetual betas and missed commitments.
It seems to mean that he spent the day in hiding while Keith ran interference for him. Keith made several sincere apologies here and on the blog while Lee was conspicuous in his absence. Totally in keeping with making the announcement that they were missing another deadline in the Beta 22 release notes instead of in a more public space like the blog. He left that chore to Keith, too.
Lee always says he takes responsibility, but the ones who really will be paying the price are the customers, like me, whose writing deadlines will be missed because the Scrivener Windows V. 3 they had counted on for their projects is not available by the promised date.
Sorry, but that is just a total cop-out and weak excuse for doing nothing. Everyone on Win 1.9 can still complete work and compile with what remains the best program for long form writing under Win. No one needs to miss deadlines or not earn income.
As for the total bs rubbish about bait and switch. That is just pathetic!
Those demanding to know what punishment Lee will suffer, take a good look at yourselves.
Suggesting he not get paid or other punishment. To put it bluntly, I am disgusted with such suggestions. Here’s a guy who is doing his damndest, no doubt feeling bad about having to say sorry but it’s pushed back a few more weeks, and all you guys can do is pile shit on him in a pack mentality.
If Scrivener for Windows 1.9 does everything I need it to do, why all the hype about Scrivener 3? I have nothing against Lee and certainly would not want him to be fired or lose pay. But don’t forget that he said several times that he expected to be held fully accountable if he didn’t make the deadline. And as for bullshit, you people saying now that it will be just a few more weeks before it’s ready, after saying that for months and delivering nothing–that’s real bullshit. Your time would be better spent keeping promises and producing a product rather than insulting your customers.
If Scrivener 3 had released as scheduled on August 30 (yesterday), then you would have made the deadline. But it didn’t, so you have to use another tool, and even if you start today you’re going to miss the deadline.
The problem isn’t in not recommending L&L, but rather recommending their Mac version as my Mac friend is constantly confused about the “drama” regarding the Windows version. Cheekily, I’d joke that maybe they have some kind of special partnership with Apple at this point.
Anyway, every time I hear an update about the Windows version I just get more and more confused. There’s 1 Mac dev who is somehow outpacing 2 devs? Are the Windows version and lack of parity so unimportant to the L&L that they are happy to continue refusing requests for any additional help? Why not up the price and hire another dev?
I wouldn’t mind it if the Windows version was even half a year behind the Mac, but it skipped an entire version just to attempt to catch up and still missed miserably. How long has V3 been out for Mac? Almost two years come November!
There’s a lot of silliness going on in this thread both from those with unrealistic expectations and the blind loyalists, but meh. At this point, L&L has made it pretty clear that the Windows experience will always be the subpar experience, and not by an insignificant margin. They’ve proved it by actions prior and current and by their stark refusal to realize that whatever they’re doing is not working and they are failing to keep the two versions of the same exact product anywhere remotely near parity.
When I wonder why and scratch my head only to see them give, as they themselves constantly admit, excuses, rather than possibilities for fixing what has been a long-standing issue, I don’t know what to think.
It’s surprising that even with two devs this isn’t happening and I’d question the efforts of those devs at this point, regardless of whoever wants to take the PR responsibility. Seriously, get more help or get better help, or show us an attempt to fix the problems; increase the price so you can increase the workload or team size.
But we’ll probably just be stuck like this. Scrivener 4 will release in a year or two and it’ll be another 3 after that before Windows lumbers beind to the same version according to their pattern.
Maybe L&L should get someone else to be the public face of the company in the forums. Katherine is just as unpleasant as the loyalists dogpiling anyone who dares offer up any criticism or frustration with the never ending promises of a Winv3 release. Although I have to give her this: at least she doesn’t talk bullshit about how the “complainers” obviously suck as writers and have too much time on their hands (which is interesting, coming from people who appear to spend loads of time on this forum). This is a company. They have continually set (and missed) deadlines - and this time, missed one that was a “set in stone” deadline. Their customers have a right to be upset that (again) they have failed to deliver. Yadda yadda, 1.x works fine, use the beta. I use both, thank you. But I, like others, am irritated that a) another release target has come and gone, and b) the loyalists in this forum, as well as Katherine, seem to think that we should all just let it slide, and say so, rudely, to other people simply here to state their opinions. If you’re not going to make release dates, then stop setting them in public. You should underpromise and overdeliver. Thus far, on the Winv3 side, you’ve really done neither.
I think the “why” is rather easy to understand. The Mac OS world is a closed ecosystem where one manufacturer (Apple) provides both a limited number of alternative hardwares (Mac:s) and essentially only one software (Mac OS) and has made a point of providing a lot of tools for third-party app developers to help and speed up app development. The Windows world is an extremely open ecosystem, with several OS versions and an unlimited number of possible combinations of hardwares and softwares, and with very few ready-made tools for app development.
If L&L has made any major error, it is in stating that they will deliver Mac OS and Windows versions that look the same, work the same way and have feature parity. Not even Microsoft has managed this with their Office suite. The Mac and Windows versions are not identical. They are very similar, but not at all identical. Striving to create a product that is virtually identical for two different OS ecosystems is essentially a hopeless project with an ever-moving target. When Apple releases a new version of Mac OS, new capabilities are added, and those are slowly integrated into Mac Scrivener. When Microsoft releases a new version of Windows, it’s highly unlikely that any new capabilities will make it easier to make a Win Scrivener that is identical to the Mac version.
The only feature that really has to be identical in the two Scrivener versions is the project format, so that projects can easily be moved between Macs and PCs. The simplest (?) way to achieve this would probably have been to release an interim version of Win Scrivener 3 where almost nothing but the project format had changed.
So, what can be learned from all this?
Never ever publish even hints of release dates.
Never ever claim that you will deliver Mac and Windows versions that will have feature parity and which will be more or less identical.
I’m disappointed that the Win version is late, however I am a realist and know the realities of software development. L&L as far as I recall only set one ‘promise’, the 30th and Lee it seems underestimated the number of remaining bugs or additional bugs were flagged.
Katherine is right about those demanding Lee’s ‘accountability’ be made public. As someone who has headed the outside of USA div of a $1Bn + company and consistently lead top performing teams in semiconductors and electronics, publicly announced ‘consequences’ are reserved for gross breach of policy, otherwise you take ownership (Lee and Keith have), learn from the issue and try to ensure it doesn’t happen again. that is how you build world’s best teams. The public consequences mentality is how you destroy teams.
I wouldn’t have an issue if some said, disappointed in the miss… but the endless harping about broken promises, demanding ‘consequences’ shows a vengeance mentality. Lee hasn’t poked anyone in the eye or stolen $50 that might warrant Life without Parole in a certain vengeance mentality jurisdiction, he underestimated the work needed to finish clearing remaining bugs.
Someone commented he hasn’t been seen in the forum (to take his public humiliation). Quite frankly I wouldn’t be giving you the time of day, rather I’d be doing what I’m sure he is - head down slaving away to ensure you guys don’t have excuse to moan much longer.
Defending him and L&L has nothing to do with being a ‘loyalist’ (you guys seem to think that somehow insults the realists amongst us) it’s simple reality and understanding that while less than desireable, V1.9 does a great job and V3 will be that much better.
I have a 3 yr old granddaughter ( 1 of 11 grandkids) who does less tantrum throwing and dummy spitting than I’ve seen of late, and yes, that is intended as an insult!
Keith/Katherine, if I crossed the line with that final comment, feel free to delete my forum account. It won’t impact my ‘loyalty’ (that dirty word again) to Scrivener and the great work you do. I am a member of several Scrivener groups who’s members have taken an adult approach to the delay so won’t be short of support options.
and not writing or spending time with my family because deadlines others have failed to meet) The point is I get it. And as a developer/writer/user and all other things I ultimately do want a product that works.