footnotes and bibliography programs?

That last paragraph makes me wonder how it is that the +3(plus a few more) manage to stick around.

Fair enough. I guess that’s more than enough downvotes for that idea. The arguments are convincing and I can’t say I felt a genuine need - quite frankly I don’t have enough experience on this board to have formed such a need. I just thought it might be a fun driver for writing here.
As you were. 8)

I use Scrivener for non-fiction writing and I love it. The bibliography is always a pain though. For articles I move to Mac Word at a fairly early point and use Endnote CWYW - more recently I have been using Zotero. I find the Zotero is faster and more stable, whereas Endnote is slow and sometimes crashes. There is an issue with Zotero and disambiguation of works by the same author in the same year.

By the way, I thoroughly recommend Zotero for bibliography management - if they sort out the disambiguation problem it will be a killer.

I’m currently working on a book – first time I have used Scrivener on a really long project – I really need to get the bibliography sorted now, because the publishers are sending it for review, but I really don’t want to pull everything out of Scrivener at this point because there will probably be major revisions to make soon, and it would be really useful to be able to do that in Scrivener. Of course I could switch back to Scrivener having done the bibliography in another problem, but that means I’ll have to redo all the bibliography work each time a new draft is submitted.

So what I need is a way to delay the processing of the bibliog as late as possible in the workflow.

One promising option is using temporary citations for Zotero in the text in Scrivener, exporting an rtf then processing that using Zotero - that works great, but there’s the problem I mentioned above.

So I’m looking into Bibtex, which I haven’t used…doing research on the forum, and that’s how I came across this post.

Anyway, that was the context – the point I wanted to make is that I don’t think the OP’s suggestions about explicit advice on the website including perhaps videos is a bad idea or cause for offence – actually it would be really helpful. I know there are a lot of people using Scrivener for non-fiction with footnotes and bibliography (I mean I actually know a lot of them) – some guidance on the website on the latest possibilities in terms of bibliography software/workflows would be really helpful, and easier that trawling through the forums every few months when I get to the bibliography stage of a project. This is not a criticism in any way – just a suggestion for something that would make using Scrivener smoother for many of its users. :slight_smile: If it’s not possible, no sweat, if it is, fantastic.

In any case, thanks for a brilliant piece of software!

OP - good luck with the genealogy project :slight_smile:


PS - there are some other problems with Zotero too - for example, if I’m up-to-date, it’s not possible to include citations without the author’s name - something I need to do often.

I totally agree with you that finding a good combination of applications that work well together in a workflow is tricky, and that it can be both time consuming and expensive for users to find the right apps. However, on the Mac we are blessed with a rich variety of great tools available - DEVONthink, Bookends, Sente, Mellel, Nisus Writer, Curio, Pages - you name it. The architecture of OS X enables many of these applications to play together quite nicely, giving the user an infinite amount of choices when it comes to creating a workflow that works for them. Therefore, if Keith should provide tutorials on how Scrivener plays together with bibliography managers (or how Scrivener fits into different workflows), which application(s) should he choose to demonstrate? One? All of them? I don’t know about Zotero or EndNote, but using temporary citations markers in any text editor is core functionality in Bookends as well as in Sente, and I would suppose that it’s the job of the citation manager developers to showcase this functionality (which I believe they already do).

Again, I couldn’t agree with you more that guidance of this kind would be helpful. As it is not Keith’s job to do this, I don’t think the forums are not such a bad source, even if it means that you have to do a bit of searching once in a while. Clever and knowledgeable people contribute here, and their advice and experience may be some of the best out there (the Devon Technologies forums are great too, even if you don’t use the software yourself).

Although quite well-known, this page is really useful for a start if you’re using the Mac for academic tasks: … cApps.html
And here’s a three-part blog post that explains the combination of DEVONthink, Bookends, Scrivener and Mellel for research: … -research/

The second link is quite a good use case, similar to the ones that Keith suggested introducing on the Lit&Lat site earlier in this thread. I think the idea of providing some real-life usage scenarios of how different people use Scrivener for their writing or research sounds like the best way of demonstrating how Scrivener works as part of a more complex workflow.

For the record, we do really want to provide more instructional material and videos on these things, so I agree with all of this in principle - but we are limited as to what we can provide at the moment. For the time being I have no time to write tutorials or create videos because my days are taken up finishing off the 2.0 code and providing technical support. Meanwhile, David’s days are taken up with non-technical support and creating the videos we still have on our list to create - and each video takes David about a week at the moment, with other commitments. Moreover, neither of us are sufficiently proficient in all the programs listed to create a tutorial - my knowledge of Sente, Bookends and Endnote is very, very limited, and my knowledge of Zotero and others is nonexistent. So, we would need to learn this other software before creating any tutorials.

One kind user has been instructing me in the ways of Sente and Bookends, so we do hope to create videos for using these with Scrivener, eventually. But with a two-man team and a major version update on the way, we are limited in what other resources we can create for now. After 2.0 is out, hopefully I’ll be able to take some time to create some more tutorials too.

So, it’s not that I disagree - I would love to have more instructional material on the site, and after 2.0 it should probably be a priority in order to ensure users are able to get the most out of the program - there’s no point forging ahead with new features if 75% of users don’t know what’s there already - but there’s only so much we can do right now.

All the best,

thanks keith for comments - and thanks florestan for the links.

keith - you’re obviously very busy - don’t even know how you have time to answer all the posts in the forum let alone do anything else - I see you are very active on here and it’s a very busy forum - so don’t worry, I’m not holding my breath for a video, nor blaming you for not providing one.

Thanks - actually this sort of solves my problem really…I had been using CWYW with endnote and word for years. Then I mostly switched to Zotero, then to Scrivener…then I found out about the RTF scan feature in Zotero…but I never considered the fact that the same function would be provided by Endnote - must have been a mental block. Anyway, I just checked their docs and of course it does support rtf scans.

So I suppose that’s the problem solved.

Zotero docs do prominently advertise the rtf scan function, Endnote docs do not.

This is a great solution for me, or it will be if it works. Most discussion of bibliography on the website and forum suggest that Scrivener won’t be able to produce the final document, that it’s normally necessary to move to a word processor to finish things off. For me this is really frustrating, because I really like editing in Scrivener, and I use notes, tags, status, structure etc. extensively, and I often need to go back to do major edits after having submitted various stages of drafts to review. So I thought this meant exporting, sorting out the bibliography stuff, then being stuck in the WP or facing losing the flexibility of the bibliography fields by reimporting everything into Scrivener. In fact, the texts I produce don’t need to be fancily laid out at all, and the compile draft function in Scrivener produces exactly the sort of MS I need. Now I have realised I can keep temp citations in Scrivener and process the output separately and quickly I can dispense with the word processor stage altogether.

I realise that I was ignoring the obvious, but in answer to your question (florestan) about what needs pointing out, given the large number of possible permutations of bibliography/wp etc, I would say it would have saved a lot of time if the docs said somewhere that although the CWYW function of bibliography programs is not available in Scrivener, there is an easy alternative: temporary citations, export rtf, scan in bibliography program (Zotero, Endnote, Sente, Bookends all do it, it seems). Might seem blindingly obvious, but I think a lot of people, like me, will have been brought up on CWYW and therefore might think that they cannot use their existing bibliography application with Scrivener when they see that CWYW is not available.

Cheers, good luck with the new version!

I’ll make a note to add a section on using citations managers and Scrivener together in the 2.0 manual. It’s worth noting that the only reason it doesn’t exist in the current one is that this has been a learning curve for me, too. I knew even less about citation/bibliography managers when I started using Scrivener, and it’s only through users over the past three years (and the nice guy who develops Bookends) that I have found out about temporary citations and how users can use them with Scrivener.

All the best,

Exactly. If your bibliography format works well in your citation manager, it’s a breeze exporting your compiled document as an rtf file and do the scan in your WP. It only takes a couple of minutes, and you can continue working from Scrivener afterwards. I use a combination of Bookends and Mellel in my workflow, which seems to work extremely well with Scrivener, but I guess you can easily use Word and EndNote instead.

That’s a very good point that never occurred to me. Since switching to the Mac two years ago, I have mostly been playing around with Bookends and Sente. Both applications promote the scan feature, so personally I have actually never used CWYW myself. When I started using Scrivener, it was therefore quite natural for me to use the citation markers and scan the compiled output file.

I just posted another post related to Sente. At the risk of repeating myself, let me address at least part of the original question.

I just put reference like this {Smith 2008} in the text, using Copy in Sente and Paste in Scrivener. (You can also just type it if you know the citation string. And you can change the delimiters if you are using braces in your text.) You can then put a {Bibliography} tag at the end of the document and Sente will pour out the bibliography. Some bibliography formats use footnotes, and Sente is supposed to be smart enough to create them (with the “ibid.” etc. needed by the humanities), but I have never tried it.

The question is, Which format should you use to scan the document? (Meaning, which format should you compile to in Scrivener?) Scrivener supports .rtf, .rtfd and .html among others. Sente supports supports .rtf, .pages, .html, and .docx, among others, and also supports Word 2004 through a different interface.

Although it should work, I have never had any luck with .docx format. NeoOffice is the only way I know, other than purchasing Word, for converting between .rtf and .docx, and it does a piss-poor job of it.

I have never experimented with .html, I’ll post later if I do.

Sente has problems with the .rtf format (in my experience), but if the document is simple, as it should be coming out of Scrivener, that might work.

I have had the best luck with .pages format, but that means buying a copy of Pages. You export from Scrivener as .rtf or .rtfd, open in Pages, save in Pages, scan in Sente, open in Pages, and save as something that the rest of the world can read. You must be using Pages 2008 or later.

A really nice feature of Sente + Scrivener is the following. You can set up Sente so that control-drag, command-drag, option-drag, shift-drag and plain drag all have different meanings, all user-configurable. Very unintuitive, and very powerful. I set up command-drag to drag a Sente reference, which looks like “Sente:://reference-string”. If you drag this to the inspector panel, you can later double-click on it, and be taken directly to the reference in Sente. Very sweet.


for the record - I’m now using temporary citations, compiling a draft, and processing the resulting rtf in endnote - and it works perfectly and very quickly, though it’s a long manuscript (~100,000 words) and has thousands of citations. I wish I had realised I didn’t need to use CWYW before - sounds stupid but I just didn’t realise and though it was a bit slow and occasionally crashed, it worked well enough that I didn’t try to find other ways of working.

thanks for the help