Forced constant beta update

I do not, and have never worked for L&L and I take offense at the suggestion I’m fishing for freebies or any other nefarious purpose. (L&L feel free to confirm you would not have a grumpy old sod like me on your team :smiley: )

If I were lucky enough to work for such an esteemed company (how’s that for a suck-up?), my comments would be no less valid. They simply point out the reality of joining a beta program.

I do however work (until my forthcoming ‘retirement’) for a major company, and am regularly involved in their internal beta programs and have an in depth understanding of beta programs over many years with many companies.

I am a user attempting in some small way to assist in the Beta process and appreciating the opportunity offered (it’s not a right…) along with understanding the risks to be in that process.

I find the frequent ‘forced’ updates great because I can track the progress towards release and see the bugs being squashed. Logically, why would anyone want to continue to use a version for a quarter when subsequent versions have many bugs corrected?

The comparison to Apple and others is very valid. The beta process is very similar regardless of size.

I’ve seen zero evidence that frequent updates are getting on ‘everyones’s nerves’. Apart from a very small number who seem (IMHO) to not understand the beta process for any unreleased software, everyone appears happy, enjoying seeing the progress and contributing.

Because we understand that the whole reason L&L is making the beta open (as opposed to closed, invite-only betas) is to get as much feedback as possible to get the program to a release state (where they can make money on it) as quickly as possible, not to get free writing software for ourselves?

Having free access to an open beta is for L&L’s convenience, not ours. The end result is better quality software as quickly as possible for everyone, so it’s a small short-term sacrifice in exchange for a better long-term result. There have been times during this beta where the updates came maybe once a month, or even once every 45 days. The fact that they’re coming an average of once a week now means we’re in the home stretch.

Hi martienne,

In case you’re not aware, you can change Scriv prefs to alert you when an update is available. F12 > General > Startup > Automatically check for updates.

Based on what others have posted here, I believe you can then have Scriv download the update and do an update in place. So no need to visit this site and search for the latest update.

But I haven’t tried tried this myself, so can’t confirm it from personal experience. (I always uninstall, then reinstall.)

Best,
Jim

Hmm. Whether one is in der Schweiz, where I lived quite a while, or in some Martian (!) quadrant of Finland, where there have been very interesting times, there’s a temptation to add something here, so long as it can be a little wise.

Software is hard, very often a lot harder than first imagined. A construction like Scrivener is especially so, with all the differing writerly intentions it is designed to be adjusted to, and thus deliver the full measure of its help.

So, it;'s no surprise that it ‘takes a little longer’, while at the same time the pace of improvements on surfaces now gives pretty good indication that the long effort to get the foundation right, first, has been a very sensible one.

It does take patience to allow this to happen. As others have indicated, it isn’t as if other software is delivered any more rapidly in its completion, and there are reasons all around for that. There is complication: a lot more complication than there used to be. There are customs: the habits of millenial construction with ópen’’ software packages are far more taxing in their continuous change and re-issue. Scrivener isn’t as strongly affected by this second element, but to some extent, as anyone could find looking into the packages it uses.

The complexity aspect means it is nearly impossible for a team, large or small, to ‘get everything right’ in what used to be considered a complete software delivery. As others have mentioned, you get creep from the very beginning of loose deliveries – or, you either wait out or participate in Beta programs, contributing your patience and reporting for the value of early use of the software.

The team here is small, and I think you would not like the result of it having been a large one, with a 'managerial approach to its quality and ethics.

What we get instead is thoughtful craftsmanship, mirrored in a stability of practical function which has so carefully not been interrupted, so that we have in fact been able to use Scrivener 3 successfully for many months, seeing only stages of improvement.

I could give you contemporary tales of actually fine software by highly capable person which quite differ, so we are rather fortunate here. And that other software is taking just about the same numdber of months, interestingly enough, while asking a great deal more out of those who are enthusiastic and very dedicated in their intent to use it.

I don’t think we can have it any better than we do, that’s what judgment born of experience must say.

There isn’t anything in the world that actually performs as Apple for example keeps promising to do…and then visibly sinking itself beneath enough waves.

One can understand the formation of attitudes where it might seem there could be an ideal where it’s different; that’s the task if we want to explain – and also a big subject.

But I think we have to go with the balances that have been described through the answers from the original posting: that it takes the time as you see to do this; that no, dealing with multiple versions of updates is not practical; that a patient mind will have you finding that there’s no sense of real interruption at all, in taking a moment once every few weeks to update your software.

It’s a privilege, isn’t it? And once again, we’re now getting pretty near what everyone desires.

The Beta gives me a reminder of the expiration date when I start Scrivener. When that date approaches, I use the “Check for updates” entry in the “Help” menu, and if there is an update, I click and let it update Scrivener. Easy peasy, no need to visit the website, doesn’t take long enough to get coffee from the kitchen (I have a Gaggia Anima super-automatic espresso machine, like every coffee-loving author should :slight_smile:).

I find Windows’ inability to scale each of my 5 monitors properly more annoying than the Scrivener update process. My own fault, I guess, since the 24" QHD monitors have a slightly different dot pitch than the 32" 4K one.

And that’s my process, pretty much. Being a lazy sod, I have a Nespresso and wander out for my coffee when it’s at work with the update. Always ready for me when I return to the desk. - Oh the disruption and effort… :laughing: :laughing:

Opinion: I find updates annoying.
Fact: There have been many updates this month.
Insult: Your software process is a personal insult to me and you hate your customers.

People learn to communicate like adults!
Yes, there are a lot of updated, no one has ever FORCED you to use the beta. There is no cost etc.

Maybe it should be a closed beta where you take a test to prove you know what a beta is and how to write a proper bug report.

I am betting all the people who act like they are entitled to complain about free-to-use beta software would FAIL that and end our misery…

Another set of options:

  1. The program offers you an update and you take it.
  2. you miss it and clidk on the link and it installs in a few seconds
  3. You in public, disclose your lack of adult perspective.

It’s all about choices…
Let’s try FACTS, maybe an Opinion plus 1&2 and skip insults and #3 from now on. OR go use the free version of Word.

I stand by every word I said, as a customer and somebody who has participated in this Beta test for two (2!!!) years.
None of this would have been a problem if it had been going on for 6 months, or up to a year — a normal duration for a generous beta testing period, by a major software house.

When I jumped on, the Beta has already been in progress for many months, if not a year. I would have been happy to put up with bugs, forced updates etc, for a reasonable duration - like another 6 months from the start of my participation. I could have bit my lip for another 6 months. But we are talking about YEARS now. In plural.

Also, there is no technical justification for why the Beta would need to expire. Many big companies do Beta testing without having versions expire and inconveniencing people.

Martienne, I think we all do better just to be gentle here – as you noted in past postings yourself, the Scrivener team is not a large software house, just a very good and dedicated small one.

I don’t know if I can understand why it is upsetting that they take the necessary time to work out and complete everything properly as they are doing in this quite major upgrade (Make a Windows program act entirely like it was on a Mac??), but I must see that it is, yes, for some.

My advice then is the gentle point of view, once again, and that will help us all understand and be calm.

I have to say, your name and spacesuit made me think of Kim Stanley Robinson’s novels full of journey and discovery, in building something new of humanity on Mars. It takes a little getting used to his way of writing, but when you realize he is exploring what we could be able to make in societies no matter where they are, then it is pretty interesting. I could maybe recommend Green Mars, if you want to jump in and have the most readable story. Red Mars is the place to start if you’re up for it, though you could go back. Blue Mars I think is for the very patient who have become convinced, or are older :slight_smile:

And then I think of a very interesting conversation that kind of ‘landed on me’ in Tampere, one late evening coming in from travel, and being sent to a certain pub for something to eat…on another speculative writer, Ursula K. Le Guin, from whom I could recommend just about anything…

Take care, and I had better get some sleep before the morning comes here,
Clive

Here are SEVERAL technically feasible and commonly used techniques for solving this and regaining the goodwill of those of us who are now fed up:

Make a statement to thank Beta testers for participating and for their patience, and explain why the project ended up taking so much longer than originally communicated. Say that you understand that many people moved to Beta in the belief that it would run for a limited time only, after which we could move on to the first RC. Then offer some options that show you aren’t just going to steam roll your most loyal and keen users. Perhaps:

  1. Stay on the current beta until the new version is available for purchase, at which time the Beta expires.
  2. Voluntary opt-in for monthly / bi-weekly new versions,
  3. Give each beta version a 3 month life span, regardless of whether there has been a new release, or not,

I’m sorry, but that is not much short of ridiculous. L&L have multiple times thanked users for their patience, apologised for delay and explained the process. No customers are being steamrolled, though you continued harping looks to me like an attempt to steamroll L&L to turn their process on its head just for you and possibly one or two others at most.

Be offended if you wish, however I (and apparently most other posters) struggle to understand your continued demands after L&L and others have explained the beta process to you multiple times.

L&L have a team of 2 dedicated Win developers. You are demanding they turn their process around, suffer added complexity because you find having to update from time to time (5-10 minutes every month or so up to now and every week or two for possibly the next month at most (we hope)).

If you’re not willing to follow the L&L beta policy wherever that leads don’t sign on in the first place or drop out. Yes we’re all wishing development had been much shorter, but that’s life - get over it . Try to be happy the expected release is so close.

With the last minute rush towards full release (hopefully in the next month per L&L post) I’m sure the L&L team have a damn site more important work to do than to indulge petulant demands for 3 month expiry.

This thread iwas not intended for those users who love the bi weekly forced updates, for whatever strange reason.
If you want to express that, perhaps start another separate thread, The thread was started by somebody who is unhappy with the situation and others, like me, who feel the same way chimed in.
My suggestion would allow you lovers of forced updates to keep doing it, but allow the rest of us to opt out. I already explained my reasons. To keep iterating how awesome you think this waste of time is, is insulting to those of us who are expressing that we had enough. You are currently having it your way and nobody wants to stop you from continuing. As far as I am concerned you can update every day, if you want. Just give the rest of us who have better things to do a rest!

I already explained that a 6 month regime of this is normal and what you would expect for a Beta. Not 2-3 years!

I would like to hear from Literature and Latte (nobody else!) why you couldn’t offer - out of respect for customers who participated in your Beta for all this time – a break now.
[b]
All of these options are technically feasible, uncomplicated and commonly use in the industry:

  1. Stay on the current beta until the new version is available for purchase, at which time the Beta expires.
  2. Voluntary opt-in for monthly / bi-weekly new versions,
  3. Give each beta version a 3 month life span, regardless of whether there has been a new release, or not,[/b]

Nothing about a beta program (this or any other) is forced.

Beta programs are offered to customers free of charge. Some companies don’t even offer them at all. Companies are under no obligation to offer beta programs to anyone, nor under any obligation to adhere to any kind of procedure at all for their beta programs.

Customers can choose to take part in what is being offered to them. Or they can choose to pass, and wait for something they pay for and which is officially supported.

Being able to partake in a beta program is similar to being given a free car. It’s a gift—a privilege and not a right.

You can provide input if you want (within the guidelines of the program). You can even suggest changes to how things are done. But complaining about how they are done is counterproductive. Nobody who participates in a beta program is entitled to anything.

Complaining about an aspect of a beta program is like complaining about how awful it is for the free car you were given to be a colour you don’t like—and trying to demand that the free car be painted a different colour because the person giving it to you should have known better.

Perhaps updates to this program could be handled differently. I’m sure that suggestions for handling them differently would be positively received if they were couched in a positive light rather than in a negative light. There’s no responsibility on the part of the company to make any changes, but the likelihood of there being a change is much greater if everybody is happy with the process—and if they don’t feel as if they have to defend themself in some way for something that they didn’t have to provide in the first place.

As has been explained at great length, this is a beta program you join at L&L’s pleasure. You have no entitlements. Out of respect for L&L and their providing free access to the beta, accept the process instead of demanding it be changed just to keep you (out of hundreds of beta users?) happy.

As for demanding only L&L staff respond to you, this is a forum. By definition all forum members are entitled to respond and many have, pointing out the realities of a FREE beta. Demanding you have your own private discussion with L&L on the public forum will endear you to no one.

And a final reminder, the lead developer (of 2) has stated they HOPE to release the final version within the month.

Why would they spend 1 second changing the process just to satisfy 1 (insert insult of choice), when they have so much else to concentrate on to deliver the final product. (To great cheering and gratitude from all the beta users and other customers.)

I’ve been using various and multiple versions of Scrivener for a long time - like a really long time - and I’ve been in this beta since it was available to be in. I don’t post a lot but I follow the channel logs and update notes and I pretty regularly let them know on social media how great their progress has been throughout because, you know, it’s a lot of work.

Despite some of the main features of compile missing or not working, and a few other issues, it’s been stable and even awesome for writing in for a while now. Which, I guess, is really the point: the writing. If the beta doesn’t meet your standards and its functionality is affecting your writing, then you may want to roll back to the latest official release version. This isn’t finalized software and it would be an understandable decision to make, if your productivity is negative impacted.

Personally, I’d kill for a weekly update. No pressure y’all. :wink:

“Only complainers allowed in this thread”?

That may create a false impression of the number of complainers versus the number of people who are participating in the beta as beta testers and understand the process. It is more useful for those who disagree to disagree, and not try to shut people up when their message does not agree with yours.

Continue to complain, if you wish, and read - or don’t read - the various posts with various people explaining patiently to you that you have stumbled upon a process which you do not appear to understand and yet took part in of your own free will, or go use 1.9 if you really are that bothered by the beta program update cycle… but you are not going to reduce the number of posts answering your complaint by telling people who have answers for your complaint that they must not reply.

Slightly different twist - L&L, I want to be forced to load a new beta every week (or less) as long as the full release is around Mid Feb.

I have a bet with a certain other on the forum that V3 will be related in Feb - Hate to kiss $50 goodbye - enough to pay for both our upgrades. (How’s that for putting pressure on Tiho)

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I know… you don’t comment on specific dates :slight_smile:

I might point out, by the way, that the complaint is about ten-day betas… but the latest beta was released on the 28th and is good to the 15th. So, 18 days, if I have my math right.

I’ll chime in and say that the constant updates are extremely annoying. Worse, though, is that if one beta expires, I’m not able to update from the application, but have to manually navigate to the L&L webpage, find the right forum, and download the new beta from my browser. That’s a massive inconvenience. At the very least, the expired beta should auto-update to the newest version.

And for those of you saying we are using this application at L&L’s “pleasure,” stop. L&L is a company. It’s no longer one writer graciously sharing a program he wrote for his own use. Businesses are held to a higher standard, as well they should be. It’s not a personal attack to say that a company can do better.

As somebody who doesn’t always get around to writing regularly, the constant updates do throw me off my groove as well. I open the program, ready to write–only to find that I can’t, because I have to wait for the download. If you don’t open the program every day (which lately, unfortunately, I haven’t), it really does end up feeling like you have to update it every single time.

I agree with shinykari that in the very least, expired betas should auto-update. Navigating to the site when the program clearly has the ability to download new editions is an extra unneeded frustration.

I am honestly very, very ready to pay money for the new edition of Scrivener if it just means not having to update so often. Every 10-15 days is entirely too much.