We’ve been in beta for ever. So it’s one thing that scrivener just does not get much love on windows, but being forced to update manually every 30 days, or in this case, 10 days is just not…very respectful of our time as users. Have an auto-update feature. Allow more time between updates. Make it easy for us to do get updates.
Scrivener is a nice product, but there is no doubt in my mind that LL does not have windows users in mind too much.
Umm, have you tried F12 / General / Startup / Automatically check for updates? It presumes that you close the program every once in a while, of course.
Sorry, but it’s VERY respectful.
We get regular updates to confirm fixes are working as intended in the broader beta community (as opposed to in the ‘lab’)
As we get closer to release the L&L team need timely confirmation of these last minute changes.
Anyone not prepared to accept the beta process would be best advised not to get on the train in the first place.
Wow, there are some really mean responses here. I can’t tell if the last one is from an employee or a user, but I’m hoping it’s not an employee. If anyone said that to one of my customers, as the PM in tech, they would be immediately reported to their manager and in serious trouble. You don’t have to actually do anything about feedback, of course, but kill with kindness and your customers will smile while you don’t fix any of their problems.
I’ll support the original poster with some modifications caveoted with that I don’t close scrivener basically ever. I have had a problem where when I boot up Scrivener after an update occurs, it tells me to update but doesn’t give me a way to do so in product. So I have to come download the update and apply it. If I keep it open forever, then I don’t have to do that and I can keep using the product and update at my convenience, like right when I’m going to close. If the issue I’ve had with updates is already resolved (given that I’ve been avoiding it for months), please feel free to ignore. But I would assume we are also beta testing the updates feature. In the eventual release (should it ever come), presumably updating would work the same way. In which case, a delay feature is very important.
Now I will go back to actually having to close scrivener because windows needs to update… sigh.
The update feature works, but only until the expiration date. It’s doubtful there will be many more betas, but just in case, put a reminder on your calendar to use the Help->Check for Updates menu the day before and/or the day of that expiration.
There are several reasons why not closing Scrivener is a bad idea.
This the first post in this thread by an L&L employee.
Expiring beta versions are pretty standard: it’s a waste of everyone’s time to have people reporting bugs that have already been fixed.
I don’t recommend leaving Scrivener open when you’re away from it, especially if you’re using a beta version. Beta versions are, by definition, more likely to have memory leaks and other bugs that can do bad things to your data in your absence. Leaving Scrivener open is an extremely bad idea if you access your projects from multiple devices: you’re practically begging for a synchronization error in that case.
Katherine
I am not and have never claimed to be an L&L employee.
There was nothing mean about my response, just a statement of fact. L&L are very up front about the beta process and that process is consistent with that from most every company with a beta program from Apple, Microsoft all the way down to a 2 developer team (L&L).
If you don’t have the latest beta you don’t have the fixes, including the ability to compile.
as a manager of the top performing tech support team for a major multinational (98%+ positive) I would have no issue with a member of my team saying pretty much that (depending in on tone) and would support them all the way up the chain.
Why anyone would want to remain on an old version instead of the later one beggars belief. As for leaving Scrivener open to prevent an old beta expiring… Dumb in the extreme.
I too agree with the original poster that it’s a nuisance.
Anyone who’s saying “well don’t use the Beta then, if you don’t like the setup” is forgetting that the current version of Scrivener for Windows is ancient and that the new version introduces functionality and settings we have all been waiting a very long time. No wonder people try out the Beta! Once in, it’s very cumbersome and time consuming to migrate back + whoever updates the blog keeps indicating that go live is just around the corner. .
I too work in software development and although it’s correct that Betas are sometimes set to expire, the frequency used here IS over the top and getting annoying and silly. Most people struggle to fit writing into their lives as it is. Who wants to spend 10 minutes of their precious writing time navigating to this site, downloading and installing, once a month and sometimes even more frequently?
The problem is that this has been going on for so long now. Nobody expects to be Beta testing for over a year! The statements over a year back indicated that the new version was close to go-live. And here we still are. I’ve lost track of how long this beta testing has been going on now, The business stakeholders and customers in my role would certainly not let me get away with any of this, in my role.
Please set expiration date of upcoming Betas so that we can skip 1-2 updates and do it quarterly, or at some more reasonable frequency. This idea would certainly not be hard or time consuming to implement, The Beta would still expire eventually. It’s a compromise and it would show that you respect the time of us users - most of whom are no doubt paying customers of the previous version + planning to buy the next version.As you can see, some of us are beginning to feel. messed around.
Hopefully since the thread was allowed to begin with, some frank comments can be allowed. As a paying customer and a long running Beta tester, I think my input should be considered and that my suggestion is a reasonable compromise.
With the full release hoped for in the next month I guess the quarterly request is moot.
Update: Beta 36 out so get the diary out and try to find a few free minutes to update.
I come to this forum regularly for three main reasons: 1) Support queries and for Ioa’s frequent deep dives into different ways of using Scrivener, which are incredibly informative; 2) to check the status of Win Scriv as I am now on a Windows machine daily; and 3) to try to give back some of my (admittedly limited) knowledge of Scrivener to the community.
Lately when I click into threads to see if I can offer advice, I find one or more of a small band of users who are violating the main forum rule by simply being rude to other users, especially new ones (see above quote). It’s a real pity that this behaviour has come to represent the forum’s content.
Would you rather I said ‘a bad idea’, ‘a really bad idea’, ‘an extremely bad idea’, Risks data loss’, ‘breaches best practice,’…?
Nah, dumb works for me.
Point, I said the practice was dumb, not any person…
My response to the poster - post #2 of this thread:
Yeah, I guess, if you’re one of those speshul super-sensitive snowflakes. Perhaps I should have included a trigger warning or some such.
Well, any one of the above seem more polite!
Thank you, both, for reinforcing my point about a small subset of users and their impact on the forum’s atmosphere.
I started using the beta (many versions ago), because I was getting fed-up with the old-fashioned look of 1.9. The beta of version 3.0 looked a lot better (cleaner interface, etc.), but I accepted that it was unfinished software and there would be bugs, etc.
I backed everything up and for a while, kept the 1.9 and 3.0 versions of my book in sync but cutting and pasting new text into the old version. I soon decided that the beta was stable enough not to need that extra work, but again my choice (and L&L very clearly and repeatedly advised against).
I am very happy about the regular updates and the rapid flow of fixes. While 1.9 is starting to look really quaint, and I can understand peoples’ desire to get the new version, a beta is a beta – you don’t have to join, you’re not asked to pay. As several people have explained (perfectly politely, imho), there are good reasons to stop people using out-of-date betas and L&L have always made it clear that each beta will expire (and when).
So, personally (I have no connection whatever with L&L, btw), I don’t think it’s reasonable for people to complain about being forced to update their beta software regularly.
I agree with jje, mostly. Heh. For some reason, my hard-wired brain still prefers the old, sturdy look of v1.9, but given I’m a modern kinda guy, I switched to the Beta at v7 and have no complaints (except I like the look of the old, sturdy-looking v1.9).
But I’m not going back.
So yeah, what jje says.
Warning: If you are upset when someone else’s reality is different from yours-- do not read.
Seriously, I don’t get it. After reading some of the posts in this thread, I opened Scrivener, got the pop-up announcing a new beta version, and updated to Beta 36.
Six or seven mouse clicks and just under six minutes to download, install, and open the new version. Is that really such an imposition? Wonder how many updates could be done in the time some users have spent reading and posting here.
But you’re not just any user, are you? You’re a beta user, and that’s different from a regular user.
Beta users are given the opportunity to use pre-release versions of software, in this case for free, in exchange for (it is hoped) feedback on the bugs and features of that pre-release product. They are volunteer product-testers, not paying customers, and as such have a different relationship with the software’s authors.
L&L is being perfectly “respectful” in the context of that relationship.
They’re holding up there end of the deal.
Are you?
Agreed with many others.
Saying “unless you’re a ‘speshul snowflake’” is rude. Saying “This is the normal beta-testing process” is not rude. Saying “Beta testers have these expectations in the industry; if you cannot accept that, beta-testing may not be for you” is not rude. Keep in mind that programmers (I know the guy accused of rudeness is not on the Scrivener team, but he did identify himself as being part of the software programming world) don’t tend to be the same type of people who sell cars, style hair, or manage hotels; the personalities best adapted to the work are honest, straight-forward, direct, but not mean. My own training and much of my work experience has been in the same field, and I have always valued most the professionals who will immediately tell me if my expectations are unrealistic, and what I really need before I can think of ‘entering the game’. They are doing me the courtesy of not wasting my time.
Though updating every ten days may seem as if you’re always updating - if you only write every ten days - it really doesn’t seem so long for a daily user. I am trying to put at least 500-2500 words on my novel daily. I take the shortened times as a good omen. When I joined the beta, updates were usually monthly. So I suspect that part of the perception here has to do with whether you are a casual user. This is also not rude; I open Scrivener daily, but I open programs like WinGimp or LibreOffice about once every few months and they often need updating ‘with each usage’. Note: Neither of these are actually beta programs.
You get what you pay for. I am fully aware that I paid for a fully operational piece of software, Scrivener 1.9, and I got no less than what I paid for. I didn’t pay $500 for a piece of buggy software that updates every ten days. I don’t pay $10/month for a piece of buggy software that updates every ten days. I paid a reasonable price for a reasonable finished work, and I’m currently benefiting from the 3.0 Beta without having put a red cent into it. Furthermore, given the usefulness of the beta and my deep appreciation for the original software that I purchased, I will be doubly happy to pay once the beta is over, because… and I think this may be something people forget…
These days it seems that it is “industry standard” to issue multiple software patches within the first week of a new piece of software emerging. Some games will take 60GB to download and then, halfway through the first day of its release, when you’ve finally played the first ten minutes, pick up another required 3GB patch! I accept and appreciate that the reason why we are dealing with 10-day betas now is because the Scrivener Sofware Team is looking at using the beta period for what it’s actually intended for, and not taking the cheap and easy way out.
If you don’t work for Literature and Latte, I really don’t get why you would argue FOR unreasonably frequent expiry dates for the Beta versions. Why would you argue against fellow users who are trying to get a company to respect their time? I cannot think of any motivation whatsoever unless you have some undeclared link to the company or fishing for freebies… Nobody likes cumbersome software updates! Nobody is attacking the company, so you do not need to defend it. We are just politely asking for a little bit of respect for our time, and to not be treated like software pirates or kids who can’t be trusted to run a beta for a couple of months . Comparing this company to Apple is like comparing apples with… latte. Plus, whoever said we actually like Apple or Microsoft and chose to pay for their products, like we do for this product? (I used to like L&L, but the longer this drags on, the more fed up I’m getting). Either way, comparing a one-solution operation with Apple is not a like-for-like comparison… This seemingly never-ending Beta with several false starts for go-live and forced monthly updates is getting on everybody’s nerves. Why on earth would anyone other than an employee of the company try to argue that it’s a good thing?
@Dev Team, Literature and Latte
The version I’m using is perfectly stable and good enough for me, for another few months, or until the official release. I would do a state of the art bug report of any bug I actually find, IF I’m left alone to get on with writing instead of constantly being told the version has expired, searching for this forum, downloading and running updates seemingly every time I have a bit of time to spare on my writing project. As you know, there are ways around this type of expiry and when I’m treated like a software pirate, that certainly awakens some ideas with an old programmer like me… Please let’s not go that way. Let the real die-hards with plenty of time on their hands participate in the monthly or bi-weekly updates and let the rest of us have a break now. As you can see - the frustration is building up and this is not generating customer goodwill. Either make the expiry date longer, or make the updates automatic. I wouldn’t even be here complaining, if I wasn’t forced to go to this site all the time, to fetch the latest version.