I know you are, but what am I?

[Thanatos0042]

@devinganger

Characterizing L&L’s current stance as “told to expect nothing” is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst.

It wasn’t a characterization of them.

I will disagree with you about it being disingenuous or dishonest. Being told, “it will be ready when it’s ready” is being told to have no expectations or to expect nothing. If you want to interpret it differently, that is your choice. Not the first time I’ve seen this said from various companies and while many do eventually release something, some have not.

It has been shown over the course of the lifetime of Scrivener for Windows that people are going to complain no matter what L&L does because they feel entitled to something, no matter HOW L&L tries to set the expectations. No matter how carefully worded the blog post, no matter how many times they use terms like “estimated”, there is always a vocal minority who let slip with the raging entitlement and come in with toxic attacks.

So, people who complain feel they are “entitled” to something. I will disagree with that and call that an extremely unfair characterization of people based on you making assumptions about their motives and reasonings. You are right, there will always be a vocal minority that complains, but that doesn’t invalidate all complaints or people who complain. If a lot of people still seem to be having a problem, it could b the message is not reaching them for some reason.

I don’t know about you, but I have read more than a few complaints on this forum about this situation that are not whining, toxic or unfairly accusing…and I have read some that are, but that’s the result of having a place for people to express their opinions and thoughts.

[devinganger]

@ZeroDrawn

That situation bothers me less (because its in the past and nothing can be done to change it) than -some- of the reasoning folks have for being so incensed at those who have a problem with it.

I think you’ll find that most of the ire has been reserved for the people who think a blown estimate gives them the right to come in here and launch personal attacks, or otherwise carry on like the end of the world has come.

[devinganger]

@Thanatos0042

@devinganger

Characterizing L&L’s current stance as “told to expect nothing” is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst.

I will disagree with you about it being disingenuous or dishonest. Being told, “it will be ready when it’s ready” is being told to have no expectations or to expect nothing. If you want to interpret it differently, that is your choice. Not the first time I’ve seen this said from various companies and while many do eventually release something, some have not.

If that’s the only communication that L&L was giving, you’d have a point. But the presence of an active beta program, which enjoys lively communication with the developers, and frequent updates including change logs that include the bug numbers of which open issues have been addressed, is another parallel communication channel that shows that L&L is actively working on making the beta a reality. L&L has said – and backs up – that they are working to get the beta ready for release. They merely are not giving any more estimates of when that will be.

So if the only thing you care about is that date, then you’re not getting the information you want – but it’s not true that you’re not getting plenty of additional information.

[Thanatos0042]

@AmberV

We’ve put out almost a dozen updates since then, and have closed hundreds of tickets. The software is progressing very well, both internally and publicly. This “vacuum” you speak of seems to be largely rhetorical, care to explain what you mean by that? I can attest to one thing, this “get a handle on the narrative” isn’t something I’ve ever been a fan of. Sounds like politics and spin to me. I’d rather just get work done.

As to the rest, I’m not really sure who you are speaking about to be honest, but that doesn’t sound like a very productive or interesting line of conversation to me. Let’s talk about the software, and how that’s going on, not who is worse than whom (that goes nowhere good). Thank you.

I can see that, by reading through the beta post when it’s updated. It’s not exactly out there or easy to see unless you are specifically looking to download the beta and then, there really isn’t much in there, except the bug squishes.

You can certainly call it rhetorical if you like, but that is your opinion of my characterization of it. It feels like a vacuum to me. The beta updates don’t really meaningfully say anything other than the lit of bugs. While some may find that all they need, not everyone is going to.

It’s not political spin, but it’s certainly used there. In many companies, I’ve worked at it’s been used in the customer service divisions to help keep everyone on the same page about any particular issue. It’s even been a phrase used at a customer service training I once attended a long time ago.

As for the rest of my post, perhaps you should warn the other people in the thread to curtain their thinly veiled insults, innuendo and other rude comments, that inspired me to post again because I found them to be demeaning to people who weren’t L&L cheerleaders.

[Thanatos0042]

@devinganger

If that’s the only communication that L&L was giving, you’d have a point. But the presence of an active beta program, which enjoys lively communication with the developers, and frequent updates including change logs that include the bug numbers of which open issues have been addressed, is another parallel communication channel that shows that L&L is actively working on making the beta a reality. L&L has said – and backs up – that they are working to get the beta ready for release. They merely are not giving any more estimates of when that will be.

So if the only thing you care about is that date, then you’re not getting the information you want – but it’s not true that you’re not getting plenty of additional information.

Well, I still believe I have a point and that is my opinion on it.

And while you may find the active beta changes plenty of communication, not everyone is going to. I simply fall in the group that finds the communication lacking. Heck, I didn’t even REALIZE it was their communication until I read it in a post somewhere in a thread…which should indicate it may very well be a problem for some customers. Especially since I am not the only one to express this a sentiment.

You have no idea what information I care about or want and I disagree with you.

It’s obvious you and I stand on two sides of the coin here and never shall not have a meeting of the minds regarding this issue, but if you want to keep responding to me we can keep going 'round and round.

[theswede]

@Thanatos0042

You can certainly call it rhetorical if you like, but that is your opinion of my characterization of it. It feels like a vacuum to me. The beta updates don’t really meaningfully say anything other than the lit of bugs. While some may find that all they need, not everyone is going to.

It seems you have missed that you may also DOWNLOAD and USE the beta, free of charge, to see whether the software is coming together in the way expected. You do not have to trust what any of us here in the forum writes, or the changelog, or anyone at all. You can just download, install and test the beta and see where it’s at.

[devinganger]

@Thanatos0042

Well, I still believe I have a point and that is my opinion on it.

And I will defend your right to that opinion. But as a counterpoint, if someone throws a hissy fit (I am not saying you have) without at least trying to find the information that is here (and there have been quite a few), nobody is obligated to give them any sympathy. I think we’re mostly talking past each other at this point.

[pigfender]

Free speech is an interesting concept and not one I’m completely sure of my opinion on any more.

I think that I’m in favour of it at a legally regulated level, as long as we have the weight of social pressure on people to keep them in line. Free speech is great for not restricting proper scrutiny of elected officials. I’m not sure it’s having a net positive effect in other aspects of life.

Do I really want to defend other individual’s rights to voice opinions that I feel are toxic? I always have the choice, if I don’t like a particular converstation, to stop listening – to stop visiting a particular internet forum, or hanging around with a certain group of friends. But popping in to read this forum has the same emotional resonance to me as going to visit my parents’ house, and if I turned up one day to find odious posters on their living room walls I couldn’t in good conscience sit there quietly and neither look at nor acknowledge the position. And I really don’t want to stop visiting my parents.

Do heavily moderated boards encourage greater attendence? How about better participation?

Whilst being open and letting people post what they like has a certain poetic integity, the medium of the internet blinds us to the nature of speech. If people splashed graffitti on the front wall of LL’s head office saying “Win3 is vapor - Quit Scriv” no-one would question their integrity for having it cleaned off. It’d be better for staff morale, better for visiting regulars and better for new customers. Given that this forum is LL’s head office, I can’t help but think that my net emotional wellbeing as one of those visiting regulars would be improved if there was a policy of scrubbing the graffitti as it emerged.

Perhaps my personal circumstances skew my opinion here. I work in a field that invites some of the most toxic, deliberately antagonistic and hurtful hateful rhetoric I’ve seen or heard on the interweb, directed against some of the nicest, well-meaning and charitable individuals you could ever meet. That exposure doesn’t blunt your response to such vitriol. It makes people sad. It makes people cry. It makes them wonder why they bother.

What’s my point? I don’t know. I guess what I’m trying to say is, for the love of Keith, can we all just try to be nice and polite when we’re in my parents’ house?!

[pigfender]

And now, here is a picture of a cat:

instagram.com/rexiecat/

[lunk]

Here is a very cool cat…

[kewms]

@pigfender

Do heavily moderated boards encourage greater attendence? How about better participation?

Whilst being open and letting people post what they like has a certain poetic integity, the medium of the internet blinds us to the nature of speech. If people splashed graffitti on the front wall of LL’s head office saying “Win3 is vapor - Quit Scriv” no-one would question their integrity for having it cleaned off. It’d be better for staff morale, better for visiting regulars and better for new customers. Given that this forum is LL’s head office, I can’t help but think that my net emotional wellbeing as one of those visiting regulars would be improved if there was a policy of scrubbing the graffitti as it emerged.

The history of the internet says that yes, moderated boards are better. Any unmoderated internet forum quickly becomes an open sewer.

And this forum is moderated.

We just don’t consider legitimate criticisms of L&L products or practices to be “graffiti.” While we do appreciate those loyal users who spring to our defense in situations like this, the less loyal users who express frustration have valid points, too. Most of the vitriol in these threads appears to come from irreconcilable clashes between the two world views, and could be avoided if all parties were more willing to accept that their own opinions are not universally shared.

Katherine

[garpu]

Thing is, free speech (at least the American version) only protects you from government sanctioning. I can’t speak for the legal issues elsewhere. Private entities hold no such compunction to entertain whatever a fool wants to say.

That having been said, sure, it’s the internet, and you can say whatever you want, but that doesn’t mean that A.) people are compelled to read it or B.) that you’re free of consequences of that speech. Like Keith could tell us all that he doesn’t want posts about purple sweet potatoes, and he’d be well within his rights to ban anyone who brings up purple sweet potatoes.

That having been said, there’s been quite a bit of critical viewpoints about the beta. I don’t remember any of them being moved/closed/or otherwise censored. Is it annoying that the beta has gone on this long? I’m sure it is. Long betas aren’t out of the ordinary for L&L, though.

I think you’ll find that most of the ire has been reserved for the people who think a blown estimate gives them the right to come in here and launch personal attacks, or otherwise carry on like the end of the world has come.

I’ve noticed an increase of these types, too, and the forums have been less fun this beta cycle. I tend to keep to the coffee, beta, and linux forum, though.

[garpu]

I feel like a cautionary tale from the game world is in order…

Once upon a time, there was a game dev, who lived in Germany with his spouse. They created a game called Cube World, and populated it with incredible (for cubes) NPC’s , mobs, and landscapes. People clamored for him to release the game, so he did–an alpha version. People played the game, and liked it. But the dev wasn’t overly happy with it, so he pulled it for sale to work on it.

During this time, snippets of new things being worked on would be posted occasionally, and the fans speculated about how wonderful the game would be when it was finally released.

Six years later, the dev comes back and says, “I’m going to release this thing! Beta starts next week!” And the fanbase whipped themselves into an ungodly frenzy over the game. And…it wound up being very different than what they had played and got used to for the past 6 years.

Now, when it was finally released, it wasn’t a bad game–it took a lot of risks, structurally, and played with ideas of progression. But the fanbase had hyped it so much in their minds that absolutely nothing could ever live up to the idea of the game. And…they review bombed it, most of which only played the new version for less than an hour.

What’s the lesson of this? Depends. Are the fans entitled? Or are their death-threats just an expression of frustration? Should the dev have been more open in the development, or is this a cautionary tale of closed development? Is L&L’s model better than that? (It’s as closed as Cube World is, but we’re involved in bugfixing sooner–the features of it aren’t really up for negotiation.)

And, for the record, I like Cube World. I like Scrivener 2.9.whatever. And I’m going to go eat a slice of pie for lunch.

[pigfender]

@kewms

this forum is moderated.

It is! I was pondering if heavy moderation would be a net positive thing - so the obvious negatives outweighed by a more positive environment that I want to hang around more.

I don’t believe this is a bunch of people with different opinions wondering why their view isn’t shared. I think people like arguing on the internet. That’s what siblings do if Mum and Dad let them.

I don’t have a picture of a cat handy, so everyone go back up and look one more time at the one Lunk posted, which is very lovely.

[jandrewnelson]

@canlin05

I posted a couple months ago that people should be patient in the waiting game for Scrivener 3 for windows. After all, I thought, the beta was looking pretty good (while still way too buggy to use).
Well, I’m rethinking my comments of support. The wait is too long, and there is absolutely ZERO updates on status of the project. I don’t care if you don’t want to post another estimated release date, but at least give us something for crying out loud!
So here - I’m giving you my own date. A definite ‘drop-dead’ date.
If the product is not released by December 31 I am moving on from Scrivener for good. And I won’t ever buy another product from L&L. This is my promise to you.

And you paid how much for the beta? Probably nothing. Just like me.

I’m “about out of patience” with people who are basically given a free program in exchange for reporting any errors, snafus or trouble spots and then complain that the updates aren’t coming often enough for the finisghed product isn’t done.

Sheesh. I’m just shaking my damn head.

[pigfender]

[HathWrites]

@drmajorbob

c) Sending your failing device to Literature & Latte would help, but you’d have to talk to them (through a support ticket) about where you’d send it and how. If they’re not willing to accept your device, I think you’d have a valid complaint.

Let us know if you try that and it fails.

@AmberV

Yeah, I kind of half jokingly thought of adding, “unless someone is willing to send us their device for a couple of weeks”, but seriously, I don’t think that’s a good idea, we’d have to draw up papers and stuff.

“Do something the L&L people specifically told us NOT to do and that it was a bad idea. THEN you’d have a valid complaint !”

Seriously ?

@drmajorbob

a) The snake-oil-workaround with iCloud Drive and the iOS Files app WORKS and isn’t all that difficult. Why wouldn’t you want to know about it?

I think that the point the person was trying to make here was the same as Thomas Rabenstein and I tried to make earlier: it’s not about not having any other solution, because there are and Thomas Rabenstein has been one of the first to look for and find them, it’s about having a product that we paid for that works. AKA, basic consumer rights. Especially with professional tools like Scrivener. We are using your workarounds, because we have to because writing is either our passion or or job, but we didn’t pay for having to go through all that process, you see?

@drmajorbob

b) The issue was reported long ago and many times. Reporting it again does nothing to help anyone.

Considering that the debate here was drifting into a stale battle over numbers, yes, reporting it again helps, no matter what you chose to believe.

Can we all agree that there is only one team here, people who want their tools (fantastic ones, to be fair) to work without having to find alternative solutions, no matter whether they have the sync issue or not, and stop arguing as if there was sides? Because now, THAT does nothing to help anyone. Thank you everyone.

[drmajorbob]

@HathWrites

… it’s not about not having any other solution, because there are … it’s about having a product that we paid for that works. AKA, basic consumer rights. Especially with professional tools like Scrivener.

Can we all agree that there is only one team here, people who want their tools (fantastic ones, to be fair) to work without having to find alternative solutions …

a) Yes, you paid for a workflow that WORKS … but you didn’t buy it from Literature & Latte alone.

b) Most of your money (by far) went to Dropbox and Apple, not Literature & Latte.

c) So no, there isn’t only one team involved.

d) The bug is in Dropbox or Apple code and Apple code/hardware. Scrivener is a victim, same as you.

e) If they had a reproducible test case in hand, Literature & Latte might find a workaround, but it’s a problem introduced by iOS 13 & iPadOS.

[HathWrites]

@drmajorbob

c) So no, there isn’t only one team involved.

The fact that you didn’t understand anything to what I said would be funny if it wasn’t sad. I never talked about dev teams, but about us, users, here, on this thread. Really, you keep misunderstanding what people say to you, I have no idea what else I can add so I’ll leave it at that.

[drmajorbob]

@HathWrites

@drmajorbob

c) So no, there isn’t only one team involved.

The fact that you didn’t understand anything to what I said would be funny if it wasn’t sad. I never talked about dev teams, but about us, users, here, on this thread. Really, you keep misunderstanding what people say to you, I have no idea what else I can add so I’ll leave it at that.

Are all the users on the same page here, really? Haven’t most people moved on to viable workarounds?

Isn’t far more relevant that Apple, Dropbox, and Literature & Latte are three development teams with zero connection? You bought a workflow that depends on all three, and Apple introduced a bug. If there’s a workaround, Dropbox is better equipped to find it than Literature & Latte (and it’s more nearly their responsibility).

Literature & Latte did NOT tell us not to send a device. One of them said it may be a bad idea, because you have to draw up papers and stuff. Another (or the same in another post?) said users may find it difficult to do without their device for an unknown period of time, trust their content to Literature & Latte, etc. Still, if you’re willing to do it and they’re not, you have a valid complaint for lack of support, IMO. Open a support ticket and make the offer.

Reporting the crash again serves no purpose when, as in your case, you’ve already reported it. One more user, with specifics, may be useful (though I doubt it) … but a few users complaining over and over does nothing.

The only thing that can help is a test case in Literature & Latte custody.

When they have that, they can zero in on a bug report for Dropbox and/or Apple.