This is sounding more and more like the functionality of the Win-only program Storyview. I haven’t used it for years, but it had (has) the contract and expand features that are being discussed.
Last night I had a look at Cocoa/Objective-C, and it looked a hell of a lot easier than I expected. So I might do it that way after all, unless cross-platform is important for a lot of people, in which case it will be java.
In the mean time, any dump of further useful ideas welcome.
Matt
@Matt: Java would be a dealbreaker for me, to be honest. Much as I want an app like this, I absolutely loathe Java. That said, I may be in a minority, and you’d almost certainly still sell it to Windows users, where there are already several successful commercial Java apps. But part of the ‘dream’ around this hypothetical app would be its simplicity of use, and aesthetic appeal (Much like Scrivener) in addition to its functionality. Don’t underestimate the power of a good interface, something Java simply doesn’t have.
@Studio717: it may sound like it, but it isn’t. Storyview is basically a glorified outliner with a fancy coloured interface. It’s like a combination of OmniOutliner and Storylines, neither of which will do what what we’re after. The most important thing is that we’re not just after something that will allow us to enter and drag events around - we can do that in loads of apps. We want something that will allow us to enter and drag events anchored to a date-based timeline, with intelligent and self-updating metadata attached to each event. Oh, and to be able to configure the calendar any way we want to.
Yes, we want the moon on a stick
Thanks, antony. That’s making things clearer as to what you’re wanting, but I’m still coming up short as to the why.
I’m going to go back and reread the earlier posts in this thread and see if I can make more sense of them now that I (think I) understand more clearly the mechanics of what is being asked for.
I appreciate your patience and explanations.
I wonder what everybody thinks about StoryMill’s timeline function. I’ve probably not explored it enough to understand how deep it can go. Not much, I would say, but I’m curious to see what others have experienced.
Paolo
Have you read the thread title? 
As I understand it - I admit I haven’t used it myself - StoryMill’s timeline only allows real dates, doesn’t allow metadata beyond the title of the event, and can’t track characters’ ages. There may be more, I don’t know, but those are three very key features in the hypothetical timeline app we’re dreaming about here.
Antony,
See my post just above yours - I have changed my mind and will do it in Cocoa anyway. It looks a lot easier than I expected.
As for a good looking interface - feel free to draw a mock-up of the interface you would like to see. I have a few ideas for how some of it will work, but I would appreciate any input.
As for the “fantasy dates” - this will definitely be included. At this stage I assume the following are musts:
- Name days (and how many per week)
- Name months (and how many per year)
- Different eras of varying lengths (including infinite), each able to count forwards or backwards (like we do with BC/AD).
- I guess set the number of hours per day as well (I think it will have to stick with hours/mins/secs just for simplicity).
Anything I am missing?
Matt
Wow, I hadn’t even thought about how many hours, and hours/mins/secs. My first instinct is to say not to worry about that - “days” is surely the most granularity a writer would need at the timeline stage - but I’m prepared to be persuaded otherwise, if others feel strongly…
As for mockups, I’ll see if I can bang something together, but my workload has just almost doubled in the past couple of weeks (and it was already pretty crazy) so if I manage anything it’ll be pretty basic. I think the main thing is to be clutter-free, with editing/text entry done either via a Scriv-like inspector pane, or via popups like in the new iCal.
No problem regarding the timing: it will be at least a week, probably two, before I can seriously get started with it, as I have a high workload myself at the moment. And I can do my own interface first and get feedback, if required.
As for hours/mins etc. someone above, and I tend to agree with them, suggested that time of day would be important if you were writing something like a detective novel.
But I should think fantasy writers can cope with using our normal time representation in the timeline, and converting it later if required… so long as the number of hours is correct.
Matt
Or if you are like me and are stretching a 15 minute time interval out. Multiple character activities and interactions where time tracking is critical for continuity. Ex. cant be in the can and in the car at the same time.
One other idea might be pointers to past events. I have a sequence of flash backs that I need to point to something like:
T event A
T+q event B
T+r event C
T+x event D with flash back to event B
T+y event E with flash back to A and CThis would be one character arch. Each arch should be able to able to do this independently.
Also shared events. If event C had characters Jim, Sam and Joe, it should show up on each of their time lines. Some referential integrity should be looked at to prevent deleting a character who is included in a shared event. Likewise an event with links should be checked to ensure that links are deleted before the event is.
Just thinking about what i was looking to build before you stepped up.
A finer granularity than day would definitely be useful, I think. There are plenty of books where the events within the book take place within the course of only a few days, a single day, and some even less. Some manner of free-form label could probably be used, but having all of the math done automatically would be nicer. Two immediate examples off of television that I can think of would be 24 and Lost. Obviously, 24 would need things tied down to the minute, since a day is stretched out to real-time. Something like Lost, which has a lot of synchronisation of events combined with distant past and far future events all needing to be coordinated would be a good example of something requiring simultaneous high and low resolution.
Not sure I would agree with having the flashback “links”. I would see the role of a timeline as being for you to map out exactly what happened and when within the real-world timeline of your story.
Flashbacks/links etc. are to do with where the events belong within the text of your story - which in my opinion should be kept separate from the timeline. It sort of belongs more in the outlining stage (i.e. what is done in Scrivener’s corkboard or outliner).
I think the current plan in my head, as well as what is stated above, would be to have characters on one axis, and events on the timeline on another axis, thus allowing events and characters to be easily linked. That way, events can easily be linked with multiple characters etc.
Whether referential integrity matters is probably something that can be resolved later when it is put together.
Matt
I think I may be the only person to have never seen an episode of Lost! But I can follow your point, anyway.
All this time I thought I was the last person—I guess I am second to last. Ha.
Ah, me three. I think I once saw a promo for it though on the SciFi channel’s web site.
Which may explain why I still have no idea of the why behind the request(s) in this thread. Or maybe it’s because I write historicals rather than fantasy, but I like the “I haven’t seen Lost so I’m clueless” excuse better. 8)
Don’t look back! Your future’s about to catch up to you.
I win this one … I hadn’t even heard of “Lost” or “24” until now … so I’m beyond clueless! 
Mark
The latter is kind of a stupid show, in my opinion, but it does have an interesting execution—so I watched a few episodes to see the tricks from a writing point of view. One season tells the events of a single day, in 24 episodes. So each 45 minute show depicts the events of one hour in real-time, with events happening “off camera” during the commercial breaks. Of relevance to this thread, this would certainly be an example where a granularity of less than a day would be desirable, as plot threads would need to be tracked down to the minute. Lost, on the other hand, has a much more interesting plot, but a much more conventional time-line requirement. The main plot all takes place on a tropical island where the characters crashed, but at least 50% of the show takes place sometimes years prior in the form of flash-backs, and recently, flash-forwards to years in the future. Many of the characters lives have been interwoven during this entire duration of maybe four to six years—with the culmination of that taking place on the island. Since a typical episode depicts roughly a day on the island, it would be a good example of where you need to track tightly compacted events for part of the plot, as well as events taking place over the course of years; in addition to a back-story that extends back to the '60s.
So I guess my main point is that “non-episode” drama television like Babylon-5/Battlestar Galactica is a good example of where you may have years of scope to cover, but due to the format, require a fairly high resolution time-line for the events that take place on the screen. Since television tends to prefer (though usually not to the pedantic extent that 24 demands) a real-time presentation, that would definitely make a less-than-day level of expression preferable if not required.
Yep… and for that reason I intend to provide both.
The hard part will be coming up with an interface that allows for uninteresting time periods to be collapsed.
Zooming in and out can help go from centuries to decades to years to months to days to hours…
But it would be nice to have a way to view it with the required granularity for a particular interval.
eg. decades/years for a characters back story, but show it day by day where the plot of the story takes place, all on the single timeline view (no need to zoom in and out as a whole… it would auto zoom in and out depending on requirement).
That is the difficult idea I am grappling with at the moment (before I start doing any actual coding). Any suggestions on how the GUI might look in this case would be appreciated
matt, I know antony said that Storyview doesn’t have the functionality that he (and others) are looking for, but you may want to look at how it does things. The UI on it is unique, imo (or was, at least, since I haven’t used it or similar software in years). It may give you some ideas on how to handle the fluidity that seems to be at the core of what’s being asked for.
Or not… 
Thanks for the tip
I intend to look at a few.