Organization

Literature & Writing Writer's Block
1

Organization

I am posting this here in case someone else can share ideas about some of the things that are troubling me about organization and writing.

By organization I am referring to external structure rather than organizing my writing specifically. I have an extreme amount of difficulty with sequencing and memory. This is from several head injuries I received years ago in the service. I have to relearn a systematic approach to the things I am working on an then, learn how to follow the approach.

I was just introduced to a new idea called “stop notes” where you put a sticky note on your written page saying what you were thinking and also what you are thinking of doing next in the idea. I am also working hard at creating and maintaining a key file with tags that tell me what each tag is doing and why and where I would want to use it. There may be other ideas that I am open to hearing about.

I write new thoughts more quickly in a journal that is almost always with me, but I do most of my work on the Mac. I have been using programs that are good at finding things using tags, HoudahSpot, and Leap. I have a license for DevonThink although it has felt too complex to use for some time, I am trying it out again. I recently got a license for NeoFinder but I may have done that too soon, as NeoFinder does not appear to be very good at rendering text previews which I find to be a deal breaker.

I tried building my own database app once long ago. My hope was to have a single app where I could work on a project from start to finish, keep stop notes in, and stay focused on my book. I finally gave up as it was taking way to much time and focus to learn the database structure.

I am wondering, if such an app exists? At least I am currently tracking the project I am now working on. But keeping track of other projects, forget it. Setting realistic goals means leaving crisis management to not forget where I am in case I have to take a break and come back to it (happens all the time of course).

I guess what I am looking for is some sort of writers management and goal keeping tool. Has anyone heard of any such animal or, has anyone else had to tame this beast besides me?

And, full disclosure, I have had a license for Scrivener now for several years. I have used it when I was trying to track everything until it got out of hand due to my own thinking processes. That really wasn’t the best use of Scrivener. I am using TaskPaper for my writing as it helps me put together ideas and sort and combine them very easily. I am also using Nisus, a Word Processor for drafts I am sharing with others. I know that Scrivener can do a lot, that is why I have kept up its license over the years. Perhaps there is a way to do some of what I am asking if I start learning to use Scrivener for my writing. I am open to that conversation as well.

Thanks.

2

Would Microsoft Word’s ability to annotate your text be useful? I’m a Windows guy, so I don’t know what the Mac versions are capable of, but that is the direction of thought your post has sent me.

I like Scrivener for Windows for planning, but I prefer to write with something else,

1 Like
3

I’d suggest having a look at an application called “Agenda,” It’s fundamentally a “journal” application, but it has a lot of features for tagging notes, organizing them into “projects,” assigning future action dates, and so on. I use it as a combination idea file and organizer, with notes about people I need to interview. topics I want to research, and so on. It’s got lower overhead than either Scrivener or DevonThink – both of which I use and love – and seems to me to have a better interface than Evernote, which is probably its closest competitor. Mac and iOS.
agenda.com/

Katherine

1 Like
4

Scrivener itself has a lot of metadata features that you may find useful. For instance, I use inline annotations extensively for notes to myself about things I need to check later. One way to implement “stop notes” might be to create a new document in the Binder when you’re ready to stop, with the notes stored in either the Synopsis or the Document Notes field. Between keywords, the Status field, and custom metadata, there are lots of ways to keep track of what kind of “thing” a particular document is and what you intended to do with it.

I agree that DevonThink can be overwhelming. One under-appreciated feature that might be relevant for you is its support for Wiki-style links. You can drop such a link wherever you like, and DevonThink will automatically find and link to the relevant document if it exists. It also has a very powerful “See Also” feature: just select some text, and it will find any other documents in the database that are “similar.” Their forums are full of very helpful people who can probably offer more detailed suggestions.

Katherine

1 Like
5

Agenda is a really clever app. I have used it since the start and it has made my life a lot easier. Their next step is to integrate it with Apples Reminders app, which will make it even better! I use it extensively for part of my professional work, for everything that is closely related to calendar appointments.

But I am not using Agenda as my to-do app. For that, for keeping track of my planned projects and such I use the 2Do app, also available for both Mac OS and iOS. I used to use Wunderlist, which is a much cleaner and simpler to-do app. I also used Scrivener for a while for keeping track of project ideas etc, but I sometimes need to be reminded about stuff, and that’s what I use 2Do for. Not day-to-day reminders like of “Call Tom” but more like “work on this project should start 1 August and be done by 31 October”. It has tags, notes, start dates, due dates, have projects organised in lists, have subtasks, etc., and it has a rather sophisticated search engine built in. So in a sense it’s kind of a database for projects.

2doapp.com

Maybe that’s what you are looking for?

1 Like
6

Thanks for weighing in. I am now testing Agenda, we shall see how it goes.

I am looking at Scrivener again and I am surprised that I feel more confident in using it than I did the last time. I enjoy writing out my draft ideas using TaskPaper. My first book has gotten large enough and clear enough that it is time to put it into Scrivener - to see of Scrivener will work out for me.

I still need to keep several sections as separate categories within my book. And at the same time, I need to keep en overview of the overall story to make sure that everything is sticking together

I am resisting looking at too many Scrivener features all at once. I think that has been a downfall for me in the past. Not just with Scrivener, but learning in general to take things in bite size pieces.

It could turn out that Scrivener itself will aid me in my quest to organize - at least with a written project. My mistake with Scrivener in the past was to try and use it for organizing everything, and I mean, EVERYTHING. For me that was not a great use of Scrivener. Now that I am focused on a single book and I am actually hard at i, Scrivener makes more sense.

Who knew. :wink:

7

@David G. Just so you know my background (which does not necessarily mean what I say will be useful) I have a PhD in psychology, some training as a counsellor/psychotherapist, and long experience of undergoing psychoanalysis/psychotherapy.

Everyone has to find what works for them, and I believe that the process of finding what works is very valuable, because I tend to see the “writer/hardware/software/tasks-to-be-undertaken” as a sort of system in which all of the components interact with each other. (Sorry if that sounds needlessly complex, but I think it is part of the reason why other people’s recommendations don’t always work out for us – their system is inevitably different.) So I would say don’t be afraid to think about what makes up your particular system, and don’t try to use someone else’s “off the shelf”. I don’t want this to sound too high-flown, but in a sense in this process you are as much creating yourself as you are creating written works.

I find that lists don’t work very well for me, because I need visual elements to help me. This may be partly because of the Picture Superiority Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picture_superiority_effect. This leads me to make use of mind maps for organisation, and here I find iThoughts particularly useful because it offers functions to insert timings and priorities: https://www.toketaware.com. You might also find a use for Ghostnote, which allows you to attach stickies to almost anything on your computer: https://www.ghostnoteapp.com. Finally, if you want some ideas about organising and keeping track of work, you might find it interesting to look at the Zettelkasten site: https://zettelkasten.de. There is a lot of very deep discussion about the whole problem of knowledge work, and even if you don’t use many of the ideas, the contributions are though-provoking.

Best of luck with it,
Martin.

PS: https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/11/22/the-act-of-drawing-something-has-a-massive-benefit-for-memory-compared-with-writing-it-down/

8

@David G. You may also find this discussion useful: [url]https://forum.literatureandlatte.com/t/scrivener-as-a-project-tool-for-non-writing-projects-version-2-is-good-enough-version-3-is-overkill/39525/3]

9

Thanks for weighing in. I will take the time to digest your suggestions.

It is very true in my experience that, as you say, we all learn differently. My collected experiences and what I have been able to understand and overcome from understanding my own limitations is a large part of what I am writing about. From this POV, what I am aiming for is more of a Road Less Traveled book idea than an autobiography.

As my primary TBI (head injury) is closely linked to a major traumatic event, it has been extremely challenging to face, overcome, and relearn organizational lessons that, prior to the accident, I was extremely good at doing. I have been working with several OTs (Occupational Therapists) to get a better understanding of some strategies that I can try out, keep, or discard. I am learning my own learning style.

I find that I do best when I take the time to write things out, and then edit like crazy. The more I write out what I have not wanted to face, the more cathartic a process this becomes. The more this happens, the clearer my thoughts become.

Because this is my current process, TaskPaper https://www.taskpaper.com has been invaluable. TaskPaper was not really made for the way that I use it. It was made as a text based calendar and todo app. I use it because it allows me to put in tags and create searches easily as well as to collapse and expand sections of my document to focus in on for a section without distraction.

My TaskPaper document has gotten large enough, mature enough, that I am now moving it to Scrivener. This is a first as I was moving to Nisus as my word processor at this point.

But, as I mentioned, Scrivener, like most things, seems to work best when you have a purpose in mind that you want to use it for. When I first got a Scrivener license, I knew that I was a writer, but I was still years away from understanding the blocks within myself I had to overcome before I could do that.

I seem to do best when I have a large whiteboard in my creative room. Right now I have a small one with a few dry erase markers. I think I am going to put up a very large one similar to the ones I have seen in businesses. I find that feeling the freedom to write by hand and not worrying about writing mistakes (dry erase is easy to correct), does give me that, hand to eye, eye to mind, mind to memory symmetry that is good for memory. If I leave it up on the board for a few days, that is OK too. But when I write out an idea like this and it stays in my field of vision (and it was an important idea) then, I will put it into my Mac, and erase it from the board.

When I enter things into journals that I usually carry, I have to remember to open the journal to look up what I put in it. For some reason, for me, this is very difficult to do. With my TBI, out of site is literally out of mind.

I am writing a draft for this post in the app that I most often use for day to day notes, NVAlt https://brettterpstra.com/projects/nvalt/. This is been a great little app for being able to do fast searches for notes.

Oddly enough, I have been unable to appreciate the mind mapping software that I have tried on the Mac. Several apps I have can do this, Scapple https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scapple/overview, Curio https://www.zengobi.com/curio/, Xmind https://www.xmind.net, etc. For some reason the linear part of my ability to understand a thing is not functional - at least not on the Mac. I seem to think in patterns and I am quite good at seeing associations that others were not seeing. Mind mapping is an example of this. Even when using visual cues in a mind map, I am still creating a linear structure. When I write large on a whiteboard I will use mind mapping some times as I very much enjoy thinking visually.

There is a concept here that I do not have a name for but the idea is that, it is very hard to multitask to the point of trying to understand how a piece of software works can completely destroy the reason I was trying to use it in the first place. That is, when I start using Scapple or other mind mapping software, I have to start remembering the rules it uses to function - even the simplest of rules. As soon as I do this I am way off the point of just picking up a marker and starting to draw on the board what was occurring in my mind in that moment. Maybe that is why I enjoy outlining by writing out my ideas and then sifting through my words to find the actual outline. Writing, happens. Little or no distraction between the insight and the idea arriving on paper, on a whiteboard, or on a mac screen, is best.

So far it seems that only by writing out my thoughts will things start to become evident and then, order starts to emerge. I am not complaining. I am glad that, after so many years of struggling, something is finally working.

10

I’ve been intrigued by your question, David, and everyone’s thoughts. (Of course I’m playing with Agenda and Ghostnotes now too…)

I’m wondering if something like a writing log in a single document might be an idea. I use a research log to track my research explorations so that I have a bit of a trail of what and where I’ve searched, and what I’ve found. (I still get lost!)

I found an old Scrivener file called Masterlist that I’m pretty sure I got from this site, eons ago. It was developed to keep track of writing projects, notes and ideas, as well as submissions. It’s quite straightforward and easily adaptable.

I adapted it slightly and added a Daily Log document, with instructions on how to view the log as you write. My thinking, based on my getting lost and having to retrace my writing and research steps and thoughts, is that a single log document might be the most helpful.

I also added a Keyword Log document, in case that’s useful (my particular bugaboo: I’m having to corral way too many synonyms for the same concept (!)).

Masterlist.scriv.zip (295 KB)

Another thought I had: I use brackets to note points as I’m writing, for something I need to investigate or think about later, but when I need to keep writing. Scrivener annotations are very nifty, but often I just like to type [NeedsName] or [TK (to know)] or [Whatever] and keep going. Then I can scan the document quickly, or do a Project Search for “[TK” (or just the bracket “[”). (I’m writing fiction, not code or anything using brackets in other contexts.)

So, within your text you could make a note like this: [May 2 12:45 pm: wrote re: xxx; next = zzz]. Or something like that. Including the date and time might help you with placing, and later searching for, the note and your thoughts. If you wanted to get fancy, you could copy that bracketed stop note into your log document so you have a running log.

Since this is old-school and without the automation that Scrivener’s annotations or comments afford, you’d have to manually find and remove the bracketed notes. Scrivener’s annotations/comments can be printed or hidden on command.

I’d be curious to see what system ends up working for you. All best.

-Marianne

11

Thanks for weighing in. I will download and look at your MasterList. I think what I have learned is, as you mentioned, to keep a log. Not daily perhaps, but at least a key file so that I have a handle on all the ideas that I have so that my searches can become more consistent.

I am learning that, the way I write, and the way I think, is up to me, and only me. This applies not only to content but to the way I used tools to achieve my goals. I recently learned this again the hard way from posting here on the Scrivener forum, I posted that it would help my way of processing much better if the various style menus for formatting were all in one place such as the side bar or in a floating palette. I did not gain a lot of sympathy for my position. Instead, the thread was filling with little arguments and criticisms for my even mentioning it so … I had to drop it. We all work the way each of us works.

It did help me to realize that Scrivener is not the end all of writing. I have learned that Scrivener is not always used by everyone for output for editors and such. I had not been aware of this. Scrivener is something I am seeing as a good tool for writing and, it may not necessarily be a good tool in the way I want to be able to use it for formatting and output.

I have learned that it is up to me to have more than one app that can help me with what I need instead of keeping hoping that someday I will find that one magic app that can do it all. Scrivener seems to be good at writing by allowing each section to be accessed in the Binder and then developed fully. As I complete sections I will start to get a better understanding of how it will all fit together.

My first Mac program was “ACT!”. It was a PIM program (Personal Information Management). I later customized a Windows version of ACT! for an organization I was doing team bulking with. I had a custom background and set up some custom templates so they could create new RFPs for client’s (Response For Proposals) and track all their calls, letters, and tasks as well as have all the contact information for the company in one place. I suppose this is the idea that I would like to see fulfilled in my organization with my writing and my many other projects.

TaskPaper will likely remain my favorite tool for brainstorming and collecting an idea.
Scrivener is now at the middle point of my writing process.
When I get a working draft I will probably copy it into Nisus and format it the way I like it.
NVAlt is my go to app for keeping notes.
BusyCal is my calendaring app where I put my appointments and create custom lists for calendar sets.

NVAlt can be set to save it’s individual notes as text files which allows me to tag information that can always be found using Houdahspot. I have been using HoudahSpot for a long time and I like the way I can build and save custom searches in HS. By building a menu system within HS I have started to get a better handle on what needs to be done.

I have had a license for DevonThink for a while now, although I have never taken to it. I tried using NeoFinder, but it too was lacking for my needs. HoudahSpot is good as it does searches in real time as opposed to DevonThink and NeoFinder and other cataloging apps which need to be updated regularly.

I find that, the way my brain likes to work, I have to be careful to set up systems so that when I have again forgotten why I opened them up, it is easy to go back into the process I was using the last time. That was why I was suggesting putting all the formatting tools in a single place would be helpful. For myself, this kind of accessibility of features is a necessity as this really is the way my brain works. But, it seems that this is not the Scrivener way, and so it goes.

There may never be just one app that can do it all. Oddly enough, I think that in the long run, I will find my self keeping track of things less electronically and more visually in my work environment. But, this is still a work in progress, that’s for sure.

PS: The Master List is very nice. Thanks. I think I can make use of it.

12

This was really the main point that I wanted to make above, though I may have obscured it with too much other stuff. The process of discovering what works for us is very important. It may be shortened by listening to what other people do, but on the other hand it can easily be lengthened instead.

No, indeed. My approach with my thesis was to export a very basic text and then format everything with Nisus Writer Pro. It worked very well. But when Scrivener first appeared all those years ago, it took some people a while to realise it was not a word processor in the manner of MS Word, which was intended to make flyers, advertising sheets, brochures, business letters and all the rest. I get the impression that plenty of people still struggle with this. For me, I never had any trouble with conceptualising writing and formatting as two different processes that probably ought to be accomplished at different times with different tools.

13

I can totally understand this and I use my iPad for that stage, together with the Apple pencil. Depending on what it is I am trying to sort out in my mind I use either of three different apps on the iPad:

Notability
Paper by WeTransfer (formerly Paper by 53)
Cardflow

Notability is basically just another notebook app, but it is very easy to draw simple sketches in it and to shrink, enlarge, move and copy them. Or change color.

Paper is more of a drawing app, with a few simple choices for pens and such, a bit more artistic (you can color with watercolor…).

Cardflow is like index cards, but you can choose between different templates for the blank cards - blank, with lines, like story board cards, and a few more. You can draw on the card, type in text and use colors. You can also put links between the cards.

I use all three but for different things. And sometimes I might start in one app and at some point copy it to another. I might e.g. start in Cardflow, move the cards around until I have the linear flow I want, copy and paste it in Notability to “get it on paper”, so to speak.

The new Apple pencil together with the new iPad Pro is better than pen and paper, because my notes, thoughts, ideas, drawings, etc don’t get lost. I can always find them on my iPad. And Notability has a good app for Mac as well.

14

David, I’m glad the Masterlist doc may be of use. Again, I don’t know who created it. I can see that having some sort of map or filter for Scrivener commands and techniques would be useful (or for any app). I find myself resorting to searching in the Help menu to find that command whose steps I’ve forgotten.

It’s so interesting that writing means learning how one works best, and that it’s so individual. I’m so intrigued by what works, for me and for others. I’m continually learning how to find my best process, how to find and use the systems that support my way of writing and thinking, how to unlearn some really old and unhelpful ways of thinking. Though I appreciate how useful DevonThink can be, I have never clicked with it. I love Scrivener; some I know have dipped in and as quickly dipped out.

Of course I now must go explore all these apps you’re all mentioning. Thank you so much. :wink: (Sometimes this, er, explorative bent is a strength. Really.)

Happy writing and flow explorations.

15

Yes, I went off course a bit not understanding Scrivener. For someone who needs to see the big picture to understand a thing, Scrivener was just a little too complex for me to grasp. To have suggested that gathering formatting tools into a single pallet or side panel was an anathema to others who follow the Scrivener way.

I noticed right away that Scrivener has a compile feature so naturally I assumed that writing AND formatting were an important part of the Scrivener writing experience. Why else would Scrivener focus on how a document is compiled, with proper formatting, etc.?

I take your point that writing and formatting - or worrying at all about formatting while in the writing process, are separate issues. I depend a lot on visual order and I have had some years of writing to spec (specification) using Word. Breaking old habits which inform me that formatting does matter, is easier said than done.

Another use of formatting in Nisus or any good word processing application is to use styles to create a table of contents (TOC). I have a very difficult time with sequencing things. Creating a TOC was one way of helping me with my organization and order as my project grew.

I am concentrating on the Binder with Scrivener. I am using the Binder to continue to develop my ideas. This allows me both to fully flesh out an idea, a section, and it helps me to not get lost in my sections essentially, doing what I was doing using a TOC.

I can’t say too much about the compile feature as I have only tested it briefly. But I suspect that your way is the right way. When I get this all put together and it is time for shopping it around for an editor, I will move it to Nisus and, like Taskpaper that was so instrumental in the inception of my idea and has now been put into dry dock, Scrivener will also go into dry dock - at least for my current project.

I would still like to find everything in a single app but, short of getting out my old rusty database tools and starting from scratch (a complete waste of time as I learned in the past), I will continue to learn which apps will serve which phase of my writing process. And then, I have to stick to that process, as the old saying goes, come hell or high water.

16

Yes, I have lived in fear of the day when I will have to track my submissions, revisions and the general who, what. where, and when of the business part of writing. As I see it, the MasterList template could help with that.

Yes, everyone has their own personal favorite apps. As you mentioned it, I will say a little more about my favorite apps as they apply to my writing environment.

ACT! is no longer made for the Mac platform. It may have folded for the Windows environment too, not sure. The basic idea of PIM (Personal Information Manager) is to view a company or a contact record and to see in one place all the calls you logged to or from a contact, emails you sent, attachments, proposals, etc. While I still would like to see something like ACT! again, there are still PIM applications out on the market for the Mac. I finally realized that it was yet another distraction to worry so much about it as the basic organizational idea in a PIM is to have everything accessible from a company or a contact. I wanted everything accessible from a project.

TaskPaper is on of my favorite applications. I don’t even use TaskPaper for the way it was designed. The producer of Taskpaper, Jessie, also develops and sells an application that is just for writing. TaskPaper was developed for text based calendar and to do lists. But I have discovered it does a great deal more than that. I don’t use TaskPaper for calendar dates - although you could.

TaskPaper (TP) has a sidebar similar to Scrivener. Scrivener uses command-option-B to open and close the binder. TP uses command-option-S to open and close the sidebar. TP is text based so you can’t put an image in a TP document. TP uses tags that you can create as you wish. A tag in TP can either be used in a search or, can create customized formatting in the paragraph it is a part of. TP uses something similar to a .css file (.less file) to alter every aspect of the text in a TP document you can think of. And, you can easily create more than one .less file to alter your writing environment moods.

TaskPaper was invaluable when I had to slog through years of records with the VA (US Veterans Administration). When I came across a term I wanted to further research at a later date, I simply created a tag for that item. Then clicking on one of those tags or, creating a search on that tag and putting the search in the sidebar, mad a difficult task much easier to organize.

HoudahSpot is a very nice application for finding almost anything on your Mac. You can save your searches as templates in the Sidebar in HoudahSpot. HoudahSpot also uses command-option-S to open and close the sidebar. I have found that creating a tag for a project or the various stages of a project, allows me to save a search in HoudahSpot that only focuses on my saved tag set pertaining to that project. This also means that you can export a HoudahSpot template (saved search) as a stand alone file. So, for example, when I have a big project I can place a HoudahSpot search file in that project. You can also open HoudahSpot and used the saved search, but, with the separate search file, clicking on that search file in your project folder will open Houdahspot to the saved search for your project.

I am also a fan of Keyboard Maestro. KM is a powerful macro application for the Mac. You can get as complex with a macro as you like. But it has also made it pretty easy for me to set up processes on my mac and make custom tweaks. For example, I use more than one monitor. One monitor is set to vertical orientation, one to horizontal. Through my day, and in the evening when I want to watch a movie, I move my running applications from one screen to another, depending on my focus at the moment. This is easily done with a simple KM macro. With two function keys, I can move and resize an app form my vertical monitor to my horizontal monitor, and back again.

This has come in handy. HoudahSpot will show its results form a search in a list of as a visual representation of a document. When I am not sure what I am looking for, then I will open a search in HoudaSpot, select an item from the list, and ht the spacebar for a quick look window. A quicklook window will behave like any other window. All I have to do is open the HS search, hit spacebar for the quicklook window, and select the appropriate “window move” macro key. Et voila, the quicklook window is now full screen. I can then arrow up or down the rest of the list in HS while viewing the results in the fit to window sized quicklook.

And, just to mention it, I like Typinator very much. I had Text Expander for years. It crashed too often for my tastes and it had a slow speed in the way it was accessing system resources. I think they also went subscription based if I an not mistaken, a deal breaker for some. Typinator is fast, stable, and can do quite a bit if you start learning to customize additional scripts. Not necessary but, it’s there if you want to. And of course, it is not subscription based.

Oh yes, forgot to put up a link to NVAlt. It is free, and it is brilliant. I am composing this response in NVAlt right now.

TaskPaper https://www.taskpaper.com
HoudahSpot https://www.houdah.com/houdahSpot/
Keyboard Maestro http://www.keyboardmaestro.com/main/
Typinator https://www.ergonis.com/products/typinator/
NVAlt https://brettterpstra.com/projects/nvalt/

17

The point is that a lot of formatting can be handled by the Compiler when the work is finished, so you don’t need to do it while you are writing. If you want an example of how this works, you can download a copy of the Scrivener manual as a Scrivener project (https://www.literatureandlatte.com/learn-and-support/user-guides – note that you have to scroll right down to the bottom of the drop-down to see the zip file) and observe there is not much formatting evident when compared with the pdf version which is compiled from it.

This concept of “write now, format later” seems to fit with a modern trend of working that sees a lot of people use Mardown or LaTeX with an eye to putting the text through some sort of application or processor (e.g. pandoc or Marked) that will give the final output. Indeed, there is a whole section of the forum (https://www.literatureandlatte.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=21) devoted to this way of working. Impressive, but it is not for the faint-hearted!

18

I see. That might explain the inflexibility of some not wanting to hear about gathering all of the formatting tools together in a place- even when that would be far easier for someone with learning disabilities.

Personally, I very much dislike Markdown. Why clutter up the writer’s interface with added code that will eventually make the text layout the way you intended it to be in the first place? This is a computer. Why not just format the way you want it to look the first time? Honestly, I do not understand this logic.

I have made websites before. I understand that there is a reason to write using HTML, CSS, or other web formatting text styles. This is done so that a web browser can read the added code and, your output on a web page will be as you had intended it to look. But, to send someone a document to review, add comments on, revise, let alone to print in a document filled with markdown characters and not actually formatted correctly … makes no sense to me. To my thinking, writing a document in a word processor, or in Scrivener, should look like what you are actually writing.

I guess I have been through too many meetings that went on far too long making sure that every inch of a proposal document was clearly stated, pink team review, blue team review, all the way to final gold team review and delivery to the client. I have spent too many hours picking apart the correct line spacing, the correct font, and ensuring the same voice was used throughout the document writing, editing, and especially, paying attention to the correct formatting.

I have no problem if other people like to work without formatting. TaskPaper is also an application that people who are fond of Markdown use. Fortunately, with TaskPaper’s implementation of (external) .less files which act on text similar to a .css file, I am able to write in plain text and at the same time, control formatting. But, a true devotee of an idea will sometimes have little tolerance for other people’s points of view.

I think the term “devoted” is key here. I am reminded of fundamentalist thinking. This is normally associated with extreme or conservative religious ideas. Although it must be said that not all religiously minded people are of such a mind. Neither are all persons who might consider themselves traditionalist or fundamentalist of such a mind.

A person who identifies as an atheist can be just as dogmatic and inflexible about the certainty that the theistic belief generating mechanism, that is the grey matter between their ears, is superior to another person’s theistic “God”. Both the fundamentalist and the true atheist are “devoted” to a dogmatic believe that nothing is better for anyone else than what they believe works for their particular world view. This thinking of the “devotee” says that, if it works for me and my group agrees with me, then it should work for everybody, end of discussion. I see some similarities with this way of thinking and with the adherents to the, “thou shall not format when writing” set.

Computers, allow for multiple choices in the same space. We each have to find our own path and, our own way. Were it not so, the libraries in the world might contain just a single volume and nothing more. Why write so many books? Don’t you realize that a single book has already been written? Why be a writer, if you really think like that? Either make all books exactly like that first book, or stop writing.

Some write using Markdown, some write using formatting, some write using mind maps, some write using outlines, some write without an outline, some write using long hand in notebooks, some write using a large whiteboard on their walls, some write thoughts in the sand and work them out later. Instead of blocking each others creative writing styles, with such a grande app as Scrivener, why not edify each other. That is, why not lift up and support each others styles of writing? Of course, there is always that one book already written … :wink:

19

Absolutely, but why assume that there should be one tool that fits all styles and views on how to write? A carpenter doesn’t use one tool for all his work, and neither a universal tool like a swiss army knife. A good carpenter uses the best tool for each thing he wants to do.

Scrivener is one tool, not the only one and not a universal tool to replace all other tools.

20

I have not made such an assumption. I have only suggested that Scrivener could be improved regarding the tool set that Scrivener already possesses.

Some people don’t like to hear that someone else sees the way to use Scrivener as a writing tool differently than they do. This is the dogmatism that I was referring to earlier in this thread. Such a person might say that. “I am happy” with Scrivener the way it is and, “we are happy” with Scrivener the way it is. Therefore, “your attempt” to suggest that Scrivener be improved, “is an invalid opinion to me”.

I am also a fan of using Scrivener. I am well aware of its uses as you suggested, “A good carpenter uses the best tool for each thing he wants to do.”. A better question would be, should a left handed person be ignored because a tool was meant to fit only right handed people? For example, we could debate endlessly why some countries put the drivers wheel on the right side of the vehicle and others on the left. While some may enjoy such arguments for the sake of enjoying the argument, I am not one of those people. It matters little to me how another person or persons uses the same tool as I do. But, it does matter to me that my voice is heard to offer a simple suggestion.

As this thread is about organization and the different ways we each approach the challenges in organization are met, perhaps we could leave it at that?