Sorry, I can't get any of the lists to work!

Scrivener Scrivener for Windows
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The blank is the text area at the top of the Sync form. You already chose a folder path to put into it for your original project – the folder you said become filled with ‘many’ files after you accepted the form.

The field in which to enter the path is not empty, I put in a path for the first test project and a (different) path for second one.

If you’ve titled those, it shouldn’t be hard to locate the one or ones with lists that you want to improve.

There are titled (most of them) and untitled.

I am telling you this will not occur, unless you deliberately put the same folder path in the Sync form, when you open it for that project.

And if so? As I tried to explain, sorry for my bad expression, I entered different paths to different folders for each of the test projects. And I created new folders and changed paths after that issue with no success.

You need to prepare and path a different folder for each Scrivener project.

Yes, that was what I did.

Otherwise, how is Scrivener to know to keep them separate?

Yes, indeed, absolutely.

After this folder sync option is “set” how does one open a list or doc or folder in Scrivener? So I have a list in front of me in Scrivener and I now want to properly edit that list how do I show it to do it, how do I Scriver make open it to edit it in Word, OpenOffice, etc.?

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And if so? As I tried to explain, sorry for my bad expression, I entered different paths to different folders for each of the test projects. And I created new folders and changed paths after that issue with no success.

I just tried again, I created new “sync” folders for the different projects (one for both of them), added the path of one folder to one project (in Scrivener to the field in “Sync with External Folder” window) and the other path of the other folder to the second project, the same result: the identical content (folders, docs, whatever in this “sync folder”) of the first project is in the “sync folder” of the second project. Both the “sync” folder of the first project and the one of the second project have the identical content.

What else could I do to get it work?

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I in that “Sync with External Folder” window clickt “clear”, the path in the field disappeared, I clicked save. Then I clicked the “Sync” button in the “Sync with External Folder” window of the other project (which has another path), the same result as before, the files of the other project are in the “sync” folder of the wrong project.

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The projects you are testing this with: Did you create them from scratch for the purpose of testing, or are they copies of other “real” projects? Was one ever a copy of the other? Are you reusing these projects each time you test?

You say that the files in the the sync folders for each test project are identical - is the content of the two test projects different?

What are you expecting to find in the sync folders? Where are the files you are NOT expecting to see in sync originally from?

Is there anything in the trash folders of your test project? Sync has a nasty way of adding trashed files back into the general set, while (I believe) still keeping them in trash. This is one thing that could account for your seeing things in the sync folders, or in your post-sync Scrivener project, that you are not expecting.

I always empty my trash before syncing, and regret it when I forget to - this is why I empty the trash immediately after deleting files, which means that Scrivener effectively has no recyclable trash the way I use it.

Testing sync issues is tricky, as unwanted changes to the project or the file set that are caused by sync can get replicated each time you sync.

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or are they copies of other “real” projects?

Yes, they are.

Are there perhaps posts from me not readable?

Was one ever a copy of the other?

I assume I get it wrong, copies form the originals.

Are you reusing these projects each time you test?

The copies? Yes, I do for tests because of the lists.

You say that the files in the the sync folders for each test project are identical - is the content of the two test projects different?

I did not check them by content, I would assume so.

What are you expecting to find in the sync folders? Where are the files you are NOT expecting to see in sync originally from?

I beg you pardon? At least I would not expcect finding files from other projects.

Is there anything in the trash folders of your test project?

Yes, it is.
It just makes me feel (actually I did not want to mention feelings anymore, sorry) like this entire system / concept sounds as nasty as I’ve ever heard it. If I may be honest, I would say something like, I am beyond amazed, it just seems to me the extent of debates here on the forum about (not working) lists and wasting time and energy with such (which could be used for writing), the effort that one should go into in order to be able to handle lists in a meaningful way and again wasting time with such and that over and over again and again wasting time and getting distracted from writing with such with each editing, just because the lists (essentiell for a word processor, of course I now know Scrivener is a none word processor) don’t work is just crazy, complete madness. I’ve never seen anything senseless anywhere.

But, of course, if I could not be quite so honest, I would say Scrivener nevertheless is one of the greatest anti word processers.

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Ponny, look. I am sorry for your troubles, and in fact spent some hours going farther on possible ways to make a better situation. It will however take software work at Scrivener, possibly along the simplifying lines I began to suggest, to make a difference.

You, and the other name who writes just like you, seem to make your Scrivener experience difficult by making extensive, complicated arrangements, often ignoring the necessary practices or their advice, which are both much simpler.

I propose that you’ll go beyond your frustration if you do simplify – at least that.

I don’t think you need indented lists in hundreds of Scrivener components of a draft.

So, concentrate on those few where you do. Practice first on a simple project with a few documents, so that you learn how straightforward (and simple-minded) the Sync to Files arrangement is.

For your outline lists themselves, practice with Word or your other editor that can read and save RTF files. Find out how easy it is to clear any errored list formatting, then recreate the indentation, with numbers or letters prefixes that you like.

And how easy it is to come back to Scrivener, then, Sync (as it will remind you to do for the changed files), and see your well-composed lists.

Go on with your writing then.

Best advice, and only now that I can offer, except again to say, it works.

And what we write is the importance, not tail-chasing in the consistent imperfection of tools, not so?

Viel Glück,
Clive

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Ponny, look. I am sorry for your troubles, and in fact spent some hours going farther on possible ways to make a better situation

Thank you very much for this. Didn’t really want to bother you to waste your time for such. Many thanks!

You, and the other name who writes just like you, seem to make your Scrivener experience difficult by making extensive, complicated arrangements, often ignoring the necessary practices or their advice, which are both much simpler.

Good to know there is a likable ally. But what extensive, complicated arrangements are these? I tried to follow the and your instructions. What do I miss? What is simpler?

I propose that you’ll go beyond your frustration if you do simplify – at least that.

OK, yes, of course, I would like to do.

I don’t think you need indented lists in hundreds of Scrivener components of a draft.

Oh, holy…holy…sh…actually I really would not say this at all.

I even haven’t gotten this sync folder sh… to work.

So, concentrate on those few where you do. Practice first on a simple project with a few documents, so that you learn how straightforward (and simple-minded) the Sync to Files arrangement is.

For your outline lists themselves, practice with Word or your other editor that can read and save RTF files. Find out how easy it is to clear any errored list formatting, then recreate the indentation, with numbers or letters prefixes that you like.

And how easy it is to come back to Scrivener, then, Sync (as it will remind you to do for the changed files), and see your well-composed lists.

Go on with your writing then.

Best advice, and only now that I can offer, except again to say, it works.

Okay, so then I’ll start practicing first, how to work and repair errored and crashing lists in Word or another program and try some bullets here and some other bullets there. And after at some point I will just go on with writing. Alright, yes, that sounds very good.

And what we write is the importance, not tail-chasing in the consistent imperfection of tools, not so?

Yes yes, that is really true.

Many thanks for your great help Clive!

Waidmannsdank!

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You are most welcome – and that is a great reply at end…I learned something, some things, und ja, wir sind die beide Jägeren, glaube ich… :evergreen_tree::horse::sparkles:

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Thank you very much for all your time on this.

I learned something, some things

OK, that sounds good, thank you, and if only it were, beware of weird people.

und ja, wir sind die beide Jägeren, glaube ich… :evergreen_tree::horse::sparkles:

Well, yes, you are, indeed, ich glaube, I am leider eher der Gejagte.

Manty thanks again, Clive!

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@narrsd - That “indent-based” feature is a great idea. I’ve written a couple of simplistic word processors (text editors, really), and that approach works very well for a lot of scenarios. Especially if L&L can’t rely on Qt for full-blown functionality. At least the Outliner seems to handle its own hierarchical structure quite solidly.

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Thanks, @ashtangakasha , I think so, and am seeing if I can find a better place to maybe get it on a list. Your opinion should help… :slight_smile:

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Let me know if there’s a post for me to vote on.

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Thanks – I think you just did, here :slight_smile:

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I’ve spent a great deal of time trying unsuccessfully to get a single bullet list to just align bullets at the same level. I’ve copied text around from different places in the doc and from outside and each operation seems to carry some ruler remnants with it. Every bullet item has its own ruler and it doesn’t look like there is a way to select lines and set the ruler for all. The copy/paste paragraph attributes feature does not include rulers - though the doc implies that it does.

OK, [developer mode=on] : I got into the .scriv folder and the files are plain text RTF v1. If I had time, I’d write code to insert one and only one ruler pattern for lists at the top of these files, and set all lists to use the same rulers. I just don’t have that kind of time. This is a small but ongoing annoyance but the time=cost to me is too high to DIY a solution. That’s frustrating.

But for anyone who has time/money/inclination to do or commission this kind of thing - this is your confirmation that it is possible.

HTH

This is also my +1 to request L&L improvements in this area, and my subscription for other notes on this topic. :slight_smile:

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See this thread for related discussion and this one for some suggested workarounds.

Best,
Jim

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I provided a fully reproducible bug back in January, which, AFAICT has nothing to with Qt etc. and everything to do with Scrivener (unless it’s a serialisation issue, perhaps?)

It’s disappointing that a debuggable issue isn’t either fixed or stated to be unfixable because the problem is upstream somewhere and out of their control.

I’ll check back in a couple of years :frowning:

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I’m not a coder (anymore), so I’ll not get into a technical debate. But outside looking in, there are actually a few reasons to believe poor list handling in Windows Scriv v3 is in fact a QT issue:

  • Although not as bad as v3, list functionality in Scrivener v1 was never great.
  • You gave them steps 10 months ago to reproduce the bug, yet they couldn’t fix it.
  • And finally, the main reason I believe Windows Scriv v3 poor list handling is a QT issue: L&L support says it is. :innocent:

I certainly hope the situation improves, but my working assumption is that it will not.

Best,
Jim

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Thanks Jim. I’m in a bit of a pickle now. I started some docs with an earlier reslease and am now starting to edit and enhance with v3. But new paragraphs/lists in this new version have different formatting/anomalies than the earlier ones. The only way I know to fix this is to reset all styling on everything and then go back and re-do it.

There are menu options : Documents > Convert > Text to Default Formatting, To Legacy Indentation. The first feature offers to preserve rulers but it doesn’t reset them anyway. The second option has a serious warning that stops even this alpha tester in his tracks. I barely have the time to rattle on here, let alone to create a new document to experiment and pick the lesser of evils.

Nope. I won’t play these games.

As a tech writer I use bulleted and numbered lists extensively. There are too many issues to fix manually and too much to re-do if the entire document is reset.

I love Scrivener and will continue to use it for creating and organizing literature. But unless L&L offers a solution soon I need to move this documentation to “Help+Manual 8” for which I have a license, and it was designed for this kind of work.

To be clear, most of us are aware that this is not “word processing” software. It focuses less on what the content looks like and more on how it’s organized. It does what common word processors do not and cannot. In this case it’s probably my fault for asking it to do what it’s not designed to do. I’ll take that hit. It’s just painful.

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Hi CaptainStarbuck.

Paragraphs in Scrivener can only have one style assigned to them.
And since a list is a set of short paragraphs, they can all have their own style.

My point being:
You don’t have to undo anything nor convert to default formatting. Just create paragraph styles with the desired indent and then apply that to your list(s) where and as needed. It’ll overwrite any paragraph formatting from before and, from what I could read on the forum, should tame them in their erratic behavior.

Here is a bunch of styles you can use for your list, that I had designed for another user.
Should you wish to use them, just download this tiny project, then import the styles from it into your own project.
image

OutlineAndLists PROJECT-bak-2022-10-25T17-59.zip (24.1 KB)

image

The number after each is the actual indent in inches. So from 0.25" to 2.25".

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Oh, I don’t doubt that lists are fundamentally a Qt issue, but the bug I noted related to the fact that all is well until/unless Scrivener is restarted, i.e. something was not being saved properly, the implication being that if it were saved, that particular simple list would in fact be fine (hence my one caveat about serialisation, i.e. for the non-coders among us, how what’s in memory gets converted to a form suitable for saving to disk. If Qt is also responsible for the serialisation then it’s all Qt’s fault, but that is the question.)

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