Short version: iCloud does not handle the links between components of a Scrivener package correctly. For example, it’s not possible to ensure that the .scrivx file (the master index used to build the Binder) matches the actual document files present in the project. The use of RTF files has very little to do with it.
Longer, more detailed version here:
literatureandlatte.com/blog/?p=713
Katherine
I guess I gotta chip in with this discussion. I’ve been a Scrivener User on the Mac for a long time and have been patiently waiting for the IOS version, you all know how long.
Now the wait is over over and I actually really like the IOS version, I think other than the mess of sync its a great app, especially on my iPad (I live on a boat) but even on the Iphone its a great tool. So no doubt, great job on the IOS version with the exception of syncing.
What is of course totally unacceptable is the choice, or lets say lack of choice in regards of syncing. I will NEVER put my creative work onto DROPBOX. All I want is plug my iPad or iPhone into my MBP and have it synced. Most of the time when I am writing, or come back from a remote sailing and writing trip I want to finish organizing my thoughts and I don’t have ANY need for an internet connection in this case. In fact, other than for occasional research work an internet connection is totally counterproductive for creative work. Just MHO.
Your argument that a Dropbox account is FREE, is total nonsense. You pay with your private data which they sell to third parties, that’s not FREE. It should be illegal to call data mining services FREE. Last time I checked, Mother Theresa didn’t work for them so I don’t think their altruistic streak is very pronounced 
. Dropbox, FB, Google, and all the other cloud vultures have created billions of $$$'s from luring unsuspecting users into giving them their data for free, that’s the only free part.
Because I really like Scrivener very much and of course as I have invested years into learning and setting up in Scrivener, I did try to find workarounds to sync between my three devices. But copying complete project files around is cumbersome, prone to failure, and defies all benefits of having the same SW on multiple devices. You change one line of a lyrics or a poem and have to make a note so you remember. Or constantly rename project files. Its a clear recipe for data loss and/or the need for sophisticated manual version control. That’s 1970’s syncing technology.
Your explanation that this is all iClouds fault, is pretty lame. I’ve been in SW R&D for a good part in my life. Yes, syncing, depending on your file model can be a tad complex. I understand that by using Dropbox’ s built in sync algorithms you saved a lot of time as you had no expenses coding the sync yourself. The ones who are paying the bill to Dropbox are the Scrivener users with their data. But there is tons of ready code out there to do the sync work. To force your customers to one of the worst cloud data collectors is ridiculous and unacceptable especially for creative people.
Its like Google’s Analytics and Adsense cookies (which run on Dropbox too). These are tools given to developers for FREE so they put it on their websites so they can milk the private data from the website visitors.
There may be people which are OK with the big brother data collection and sharing machine. Many, including myself, ARE NOT.
So if you really have no plans to support users with a privacy conscience, say that loud and clear. Don’t blame Apple or say maybe we do something if they change their iCloud file model. In may case I’d have waited in vain for the IOS version and that be the end of the Scrivener rope for me. Then I can keep writing as before in IOS notepad and use copy and paste to get it into the OS X version. I am a writer, not a file administrator. I’d would have been better served if you’d have made that clear much earlier then I could have acted accordingly. I have to say very clear that I feel very neglected in my sync needs and that until I read the manual and worked with the new SW I wouldn’t have been able to believe that you simply skipped on the most basic form of syncing projects between devices and tried to hand me over to Dropbox.
well, there is always hope. I see that I am not the only one in need of bare bone syncing without internet connection. I am looking forward for a quick resolution of this major usage shortcoming and hope that you will tackle this very soon.
all the best
cheers
Ernie
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just read the Dropbox Privacy Policy and check outgoing traffic with tools like LIttle Snitch, see which trackers run while you are on Dropbox (with Ghostery for example) and it will make your skin crawl and you will never again put a single bit to their servers.
Exactly what do you expect L&L to do when Apple’s own sync protocols mangle packaged files – the underlying APPLE technology that supports the Scrivener file format?
No, seriously, what do you REASONABLY expect L&L to do in this situation when not even Apple has bothered to get their product working with their own technology? Come up with their own sync protocol? Even with existing code and APIs, we’d be waiting for the iOS version for another five years. L&L had to use a pre-existing engine. (That’s like expecting a game designer to write their own engine instead of using Unity or one of the other choices out there.)
Dropbox is the only widely-used cloud sync application that supports OSX, Windows, and iOS (and looking toward the future, Android). Yes, there are others out there that support all those platforms, but they don’t have nearly as many users. At least with Dropbox, the majority of people who are the target audience probably already have a Dropbox account and are familiar with it. OneDrive is right there with iCloud – not up to the task. Writing code to support a sync engine has no single well-defined API all sync providers use so you can write once and let the user pick their favorite sync client/engine.
L&L offered iOS users a choice – do it without the wire via Dropbox, or use the wire with iTunes. They’re not forcing anyone to use Dropbox. Just because they made the choice YOU don’t like doesn’t mean it was the wrong one to make.
Have you checked how to sync via iTunes?
“… while you are on Dropbox”? Could you explain what you mean? When am I on Dropbox?
Novelist, given your preference for working without an internet connection, the point made by Lunk and Devinganger bears repeating. You surely missed the option for syncing using direct USB connection via iTunes. No internet connection required, I believe. It seems that would perfectly suit your use case, omit the need to use Dropbox and considerably decrease your stress levels.
Out of curiosity, I logged into the Dropbox web interface, which I rarely use. The login screen has a single tracker blocked by Ghostery (Google Tag Manager) and the file screens after logging in have no trackers.
FWIW I’ve just done the same and Ghostery didn’t find any trackers, neither did Cookie, which is set to delete any trackers, log any.
Incidentally anyone who doesn’t wish to use DropBox might find it worth giving Box a try. I’ve used it on occasion and it seems OK with package files. YMMV of course - use at your own risk. Being aimed more at business users they may take a different approach to security although I doubt whether there is that much of a difference.
I almost never log on to the Dropbox web interface. Usually only use the app, on both Mac and iOS. The apps are downloaded via App store so they shouldn’t contain spy ware, right? So what’s the big danger?
A sudden spike in your tin-foil budget?
A. there is no Scrivener SYNC via iTunes!! All you can do is COPY a complete project file. Thats called copying, not syncing although it happens while iTunes actually syncs data between other ios and osx applications.
What for do i need a multiplatform software if i can’t use to work it on a smartphone, a pad and a desktop/laptop at random on the same project without having the need for manual file management?
You have a glorious idea on a morning beach walk and manifest that in same Scriener acts on the phone. Back on the boat you put some meat to that while its still fresh and you do that on the pad as the laptop needs a charge first before the next session. Then later you fire up the newly charged laptop and sync from the phone and pad and get it all together. That is what a cooperating multiplatform SW does. What am I gonna do? Wait with my ideas until the laptop is charged(at least nobody was able to work on the project here , then copy the phone file to the laptop, then to pad, then back. Or rename the project files as per device and the copy, open and cut and paste ? Gotta be kidding me, right ?
Lets face it, Scrivener is not a cooperating multiplatform SW without the use of Dropbox. Period !!! Copying project files has Nothing to do with syncing, absolutely nothing. We have to stop talking of syncing Scrivener files via iTunes, because there is no such thing.
B. for the Dropbox fans. If you can’t see multiple trackers when you are active in Dropbox, then you are not looking. And actually I don’t care what other people do with their privacy. You can trade whatever of yoursel to whoever for whatever price. But I care about mine and I am simply put off by having a great piece of SW which has a total lack of syncing cababilities unless I’d be willing for a free data donating account with Dropbox.
I don’t have a FB account, because I don’t need it. I don’t have a Google, Whatsup, Snapchat, and whatever account, because I don’t need it. Nor do I need a Dropbox account. All i need is a good writing SW.
C. I have not asked for a refund, neither do i plan to so, and I still think that with the exception of this syncing mess that Scrivener is great SW and that Keith and his team have done a tremendous job.
But I also do think that it is my right as a customer to voice my frustration. I would simply not have expected being left in the rain like this.
Enough of this. Other SW will come up or bd available, or I will just keep using notepad and the osx version. The way we write and record our thoughts will change in ways yet unimaginable, very soon. And privacy will be an option.
it is outright scary of what some people know of how they are spied on. Do yourself a favor and read Dropbox’ privacy policy and exactly which data they collect. On the IZoS spps too. And close your mobile browser and clear website data cache before you fire up tge dropbox app on ios. And never leave the dropbox app open. And there are tools who show you which traffic with which servers.
There is no such thing as syncing. When you synchronize between devices, you copy what’s different from one device to the other. This can be done using cable, or WiFi, directly or using an intermediate data handling server, like Dropbox, or iCloud, or iTunes. So all syncing is just copying. How else would you do it? Magic?
About not using FB or anything else… Does this mean that you don’t use the internet either? Oh, wait, you ARE reading and writing on this forum. How come you dare to do that? Do you use email? Those are stored on a remote server… 
I actually have a habit of reading the privacy policies of the services I use, and I don’t see anything dangerous in there. Can you explain exactly what it is you are afraid of will happen if you use Dropbox?
I actually went and reread Dropbox’s privacy policy. Nothing there is worse than any other privacy policy. Yes, your account info (name, email etc.) are public, but even for those there are explanations, they are public so you can be searchable for the share features etc. No, they don’t read your content, unless there is a court order. Unlike google which reads your emails all the time to serve you ads and whatnot. Or Facebook which reads all your posts and chats for the same reason.
Now, unless they routinely violate their own privacy policy (which I can’t prove either way), there is nothing there that would make my scrivenings unsafe. And believe me, I write stuff that is illegal in some countries and gray area in some others. Even the whole permissions on macOS fiasco recently turned out to be a false alarm. Not everyone out there is in the data selling business. Google is. Facebook is. Most social networks are. Whatsapp? Not with end to end encryption, even though I don’t use that app.
Just because a business model doesn’t make sense to me, doesn’t mean it is not profitable. I have 50GB for life and for free on Box just because I was on their initial mac and ios testing phase. Dropbox had for a period done deals with a lot of academic institutions and offers business packages that have even stricter privacy policies, and profitable pricing. Even I thought of buying a paid subscription, until I found out I would never fill my quota with my current use. So they are making money from that. Do they read/sell my data? Not likely. Is my data safe? That is up to me. Is my password changed often and not easily crackable? Do I use two factor auth.? Those are the real security measures.
Tracking cookies and services make no difference unless you are writing war correspondence from some brutal dictatorship. Otherwise, nobody looks to steal my novel. They don’t even know I am writing it. And if they did wish to steal mine, they would have stolen something bigger, and word would get out. It really would. Remember the iCloud hacks not too long ago? Even almighty Apple couldn’t keep that hush-hush.
Not to sound as gloating, sure, I’d love more syncing options including iCloud, Box and/or OneDrive. But I can’t demand from L&L to fix what big corporations made broken.
@lunk - the two of us will simple have to agree that we have a different view of what our rights to privacy are
@pescat - "they are not worse than others ". Really sorry to hear that you lowered your privacy standards to that. How dare you expect others to do the same.
And again, i don’t care what you give away, I intend to give away nothing !!! Not my scrivenings, my location, my browser history, its nobodies business but mine. I am not hiding anything, I just keep my private life private. Do you have a problem with that ?
And lets be very clear. Ios scrivener without dropbox can NOT sync. Thats the initial problem and that won’t go away until Keith and his team are fixing it. Because a SW which is only operable on multiple platforms with the addition of external services, is imho not fit to be sold as a multiplatform SW.
cheerio
Literature and Latte simply does not have the resources to support our own cloud service, so some sort of external service will always be necessary for cross-platform synchronization. If this is an insurmountable obstacle for you, feel free to request a refund through the iTunes store. Apple is generally quite accommodating of such requests.
Katherine
Katherine,
don’t get me wrong. I do “love” Scrivener and I think you guys did a great job with the IOS version too. But requiring a shady third party cloud app to sync my creative works, which collects whatever else data they can get their hands on, is just not ok imho.
Running Dropbox apps on all devices, all the time, is just what they need to create and sell mega profiles of their users.
The reason they do not offer automatic encryption is that it would disable their data collection model. No excuse there. The NSA will do whatever is in their powers to prevent, or compromise end user controlled encryption as it would be the end of many of their spy projects.
Your Dropbox data is actually stored on Amazon’s S3 storage service, which means that it is securely encrypted there but that DropBox retain the encryption keys and could theoretically access it. Indeed, DropBox’s privacy policy states that certain employees have this power for use when data is legally required to be disclosed.
Its very clear that my Scrivener data is NOT save with Dropbox, lets not even talk about Amazon. And don’t underestimate the data collection via all the trackers while using DropBox.
What I like to see is a sync option which doesn’t require any cloud service, or a built in encryption where “I” have the keys, not DropBox.
There is of course a much bigger battle behind the curtains. North American laws are quite different from European laws when it comes to secure data and cloud services. And there is little hope this will change in the future. The CEO’s of Google, Amazon and and and have already massive political influence in the US (no wonder with the duds they have running for office) whether it is ES joining the BOD of the Pentagon, or the Amazon CEO taken control of the LA Times to just give you some examples. They are just extensions of the NSA. I personally expect this to be an ongoing battle between especially North America and Europe.
Without Snowden’s revelations we’d still think that mass data collection is some apocalyptic future threat.
The future of data security does NOT lie with these NSA affiliates, it lies in OPEN SOURCE and educated users and application developers who respect and honor personal privacy. We really do need a NSA, Google, Amazon, … free IT infrastructure.
You say you don’t have the resources to code your own sync. Maybe you need to ask us to spend $100 for the app instead of $ 25. I sure would be willing to support your efforts accordingly.
Until then I’ll use the IOS app as an independent app with manual copy and paste sync, as it is simply impossible to efficiently do that otherwise without corrupting your data.
cheerio and keep up the good work
Actually, the sync code is the easy part. I said that we don’t have the resources to support our own cloud service. Nor is that an area where we have any particular expertise or interest.
And what makes you think that a roll-your-own service put together on a shoestring by a small company with no security expertise would meet your standards anyway? That sounds like exactly the way to get a service with enough holes for the NSA to drive a truck through.
Katherine
Sorry, you misunderstood me, I may have been not clear enough in my post. If you read my post, I am asking actually for a SYNC without the involvement of any cloud service. So why don’t you just offer that if its that easy 
. That would be great.
I am actually not worried about the NSA proof reading my scrivenings. Its just that my personal life, including all my computer use, is none of their business. I don’t think they drive trucks anymore , they hide in secure buildings, spy on everybody and fly drones, the cowards. Actually the main nuisance is in all the trackers which come along with all cloud services. You’re obviously looking away while that happens or have completely different standards when it comes to personal privacy and of course that is your personal choice.
If you say the sync code is that easy. What about integrating a small utility which does the syncing after I have copied the project file via iTunes ?
I haven’t been actively coding for quite a while and have never coded for IOS so I have to admit I don’t really know on how much open source code is available these days. But from my past experience I would think that there is sufficient “transparent” code out there to create a solution without breaking the resource bank or handing your customers to the data collection vultures. And looking at Scrivener itself, I am quite confident that the LL team is a very capable team too.
cheerio
I looked with ghostery - what else do you recommend? Do you have any replicable evidence that db is tracking?