I believe One Drive still stores a copy of the project locally. Often, “cloud-based” means “doesn’t work without internet,” which gets a hard NO from many people.
Katherine
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It does, in fact, do exactly that, as long as you have set the modern versions of OneDrive to keep local copies of the various files on the hard drive. You can manually tune them now on a per-file basis to keep them cloud-only, let them stay on the local drive if they were created there, or always keep them on the local drive.
They also seem to have finished the move away from the Groove-based sync engine that was causing reliability issues, and have a unified sync engine now that works both with consumer OneDrive and OneDrive for Business. I have found this client to be one of the most pleasingly stable and reliable OneDrive clients ever, actually, although I still only use DropBox for my live Scrivener projects.
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Yes, in effect, I have Windows 10 set to store the file name structure on the Local HD, while the actual file is stored on OneDrive. There is no duplication of files between the HD and OneDrive. It has worked flawlessly for me for the last two years or so with Text (Scrivener, Word & Others), Photos (ACDSee Ultimate), and Videos (TechSmith Camtasia, ACDSee Luxea & others). This isn’t some special thing I have created, it is well documented by Microsoft.
I am never without the internet, even when I travel, and as a retired DBA, I have a strong understanding of proper backup strategy, and disaster recovery. It’s not for everyone, I admit. But I DO think modern software simply MUST be more internet aware to stay competitive.
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Be aware that Scrivener expects all files in the project to be locally available. If you attempt to open an item in the Binder that is actually stored remotely, Scrivener may show an “empty” document. The document “reappears” once it’s been downloaded, but many users find this behavior extremely alarming.
From my point of view, the issue is not really that software needs to be more internet aware, but that humans do. The vast majority of synchronization-related support issues come down to either human error or human expectations that don’t align with the realities of internet connectivity.
Katherine
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This is where I would be using that folder-level granularity I mentioned to have a folder tree for active projects that is always synced to my drive. I usually have Internet access, but between power and signal strength concerns, sometimes that access is not reliable for file syncing. Moving my active projects into one folder so that I know they’re automatically being synced as my machine has power/signal means less mental gymnastics on my part, to talk to Katherine’s point.
In my case, I use Dropbox for my active Scrivener projects (because then they are also available on my immediately beloved new iPad (how the hell did I ever live without this thing???) and use OneDrive to archive my backups and inactive projects. This lets me balance power, drive space, Internet, convenience, and risk at a level I am comfortable with.
Your point is well taken. But, to Scrivener and to Windows, the files ARE local. The supporting file infrastructure is stored locally while the files themselves are stored on OneDrive. Calls to retrieve a file, occur locally, and Windows then intercepts the call and retrieves the actual files from OneDrive. Scrivener and other apps see all this as a local transaction. This has been rock solid and reliable for me with 100mbps download speed at home, the slight delay in retrieval is not noticeable to me.
Now, I’m not saying this is for everyone. But certainly, it will be useful for some people. And those who think it might be useful for them, should do some testing with expendable older projects. AS always, something like this requires a solid Back up and disaster recovery plan.
If you make money from something, or if you love your artistic endeavors, then it is worth taking the time to make sure that you have planned for as many disater scenarios as possible.
Yes, I understand that. That’s how any “smart” sync mechanism works. Which is exactly why, if the download fails for any reason, Scrivener will show an empty file rather than a file not found error. Which, as I said, many users find distressing.
Katherine
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Just for general information, I use Joplin to type on my 8" tablet. Joplin is a cross-platform open source software with desktop versions for Mac, Windows and Linux and mobile versions for Android and IOS. It takes notes, has notebooks, syncs using just about anything (I use Dropbox).
Structurally, the desktop versions look a lot like Scrivener. A notebook pane, an articles in that notebook middle pane, and then either one or two writing panes. The system and Android version present the panes on at a time (space) and is based on Markdown instead of RTF, but, I can do what I want faster with markdown than with Scrivener’s RTF. For example, it is faster for me to type ## whatever my subhead is
than ctrl-Shift-2 that I type in scrivener. Certainly easier on a tablet.
typing 1. first point for a bulleted list etc.
If you have a good Android keyboard (I use Fleksy) I can type almost as fast on my tablet lying in bed as I can at my desk.
The android version bogs down after a couple of pages on an article, so you have to break them up.
Then just copy and paste from the desktop version of Joplin into scrivener.
Joplin also has a web clipper to grab pages off the Internet, and a solid import from Evernote. It is an open source Evernote alternative.
Just looking at some stats released this week. Android paid app sales are still less than half that of iOS despite device numbers, which makes the ‘market size’ argument a fail.
Programming for Android is more difficult than for iOS especially when trying to factor in all the different device sizes, OS versions etc.
Even Android Authority recognises the limitations of ChromeBooks for real world applications. As far as I can see, there are four claimed benefits of ChromeBooks I’ve taken from the various Android sites.
Cost - ugly cheap to cheap - flip side woefully, woefully, under spec’d, even at the top end.
Light weight. A MacBook Air is 200-300g lighter than all of the ChromeBooks I checked from ASUS, Lenovo and HP.
Battery Life. With the new M1 MBA and ARM Win devices, if they ever sort out ARM Win, the battery argument is moot. All the ones I checked advertised in the region of 12 hour battery life vs 18 for an MBA.
Web based - also one of its major failings, so double-edged sword. If you really want, there are web based apps for Mac and Win.
So, in the end it came down to Cheap! There is often a flip side to cost. Grand daughters school threw out ChromeBooks due to poor mechanical reliability. Now all iPad and MBA depending on class year.
Not saying ChromeBook isn’t a valid option, especially when almost free for cash strapped schools, but as soon as those students want to do much more than run kludgy Android or web apps, they will be headed to Win or Mac.
Yes, I agree an Android app will be nice to have as an option, but there is little to suggest it will be other than just another potential revenue stream to add to where L&L already make money. I recall in one post an Android user expected the Android app would be free to entice users to perhaps one day pay for a Win or Mac app, which illustrates a mindset in some that needs to be conquered.
Certainly not the Holy Grail suggested by some.
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Looking back on this post and checking latest US sales statistics, the picture is not looking too rosy for Chromebooks.
HP’s Chromebook sales crashed over 30% and ASUS, another major, over 20%, so Chromebooks in the US are in fact selling SIGNIFICANTLY fewer devices as people working from home are moving to full spec laptops to achieve actual work. Mac sales meanwhile have skyrocketed and the latest MacBook Pros are backordered out towards 2 months for some specs.
We have a NYT best-selling author in our group here on the Central Coast and she ordered a 16" MBP the day they were released. She writes, generates covers under contract, edits for other authors and a Chromebook would never cut it. I’m about to order a well spec’d 14"to supplement my M1 MBAir as I don’t need the portable screen size of the 16. It will be as powerful as most higher end desktops when paired with 27" monitors.
Win machines have also seen an uptick.
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To some of your points on the 4 benefits of Chromebooks:
Cheap - this is a misconception; while Chromebooks start affordable, they go upwards of $1000, and share the same specs as a Windows computer if you really want to. Most people using Chromebooks do not need anywhere near that kind of power, but for outer use cases such as my own (using Chrome OS’ linux terminal for heavier use) you can find very high spec’d Chromebooks. This argument is invalid.
Lightweight - when people talk about Chromebooks being lightweight, they are not usually talking about their actual weight. They are talking about the lightweight operating system that is Chrome OS, that uses way less system resources than both Windows and Mac OS, as it is at its root a Linux operating system.
Battery Life - yes, you can get great battery life on a lot of devices nowadays. Not nearly as much on lower end devices though. In these cases, Chromebooks excel.
Web based - this comes down to preference. In an age where you can type documents (MS Word, Google Docs), UI/UX design (Figma), and even some lightweight video editing (Clipchamp) all in a browser, I don’t see this as being a downside, but to each their own. There are even web apps that allow you to work offline, called Progressive Web Apps, and Wavemaker, the free competitor that reminds me of Scrivener is one of them.
Sad to hear your granddaughters threw out their Chromebooks, however I only see the poor reliability on the lower end of the scale. If you spend around the same on a Chromebook as you do on a Windows or Mac computer you don’t see those same issues, I can attest to that.
And I can already hear the “why would you do that when you could get a Windows or Mac machine?” coming my way. Sometimes people prefer other operating systems. I think it’s ridiculous in this day and age to dismiss Chromebooks as just some web based platform that can’t do anything. First, the web enables us to do way more things than it used to be capable of, as I touched on previously. Second, and I know this is more of a fringe case, but it still stands true: Chrome OS is a Linux operating system. There is virtually nothing I can’t do on a Chromebook with the right know-how and a properly spec’d machine. It’s fine if most people aren’t going to use them in that way, but to dismiss that entirely is to dismiss the whole Linux platform. Chrome OS is the most easily accessible Linux platform, and it is also the budding platform that students today are first growing up with, regardless of whether it’s due to affordability or whether it’s because of security, or even if it’s due to the fact that students can take advantage of the Linux terminal to practice coding in school, something I’ve started to see in more and more schools.
As for your argument about Chromebook sales statistics, I recommend you read this article:
Yes, the sales are dipping, but it also makes sense that the market is fully saturated, something Apple also sees with their phones and laptops from time to time as people tend to hold onto their devices for a few years. I don’t see this spelling the doom and gloom you’re suggesting, as Chrome OS is still the second best-selling desktop OS. Yes this is likely due to more affordable price points as compared to Mac, but that does not make it any less valid.
Perhaps an Android app isn’t specifically what we need though. Perhaps the real pivot should be to a Progressive Web App. These are something that can be repackaged into an app in the app store, and also makes a neutral platform that can be used on Windows, Mac, Chrome OS/Linux, iPhone, Android, and whatever else is out there. Or perhaps I should be asking for better support for the Linux beta (though I believe that helps sufficiently less people). But there is definitely enough people asking about an Android version to merit some sort of support, and now that Windows machines are starting to “talk” better with Android devices, even going so far as to support some Android apps, I think the world deserves access to one of my favorite writing apps in a more agnostic way. The future of software is accomplishing whatever task you need on whatever device you have access to or prefer, and that is a hill I will die on.
Also wanted to touch on your app sales stats. I do not dispute those; however I think taking that at face value and assuming that my argument is a fail dismisses some very basic possibilites.
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As I believe you or someone else already mentioned, one of the reasons Android has a larger market share is due to a likely majority of those devices being more affordable ones. If we were to compare devices only within Apple’s price ranges, we may find a different ratio on those app sales stats.
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Another reason Apple may have more app sales is due to there being a lot more exclusive apps on Apple, which keeps them in that walled garden, leading to an inconsistent comparison that may not be that way if Apple were more willing to play nicely.
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I can guarantee that a majority of those app sales are games. If we were to filter down to more specific categories, we might find that sales are more equal than it appears.
You may be correct in assuming that it is easier to develop for iOS. But with tools like Flutter that allow you to convert an iOS app into one that can be optimized for Android you don’t really have to do too much more to bring it over. Most of the work is done, now it’s just down to optimization.
“Just down to optimization” is a dead giveaway that you haven’t personally attempted to do this with an application remotely as complex as Scrivener.
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I don’t speak for Keith, but I believe he has previously expressed near-complete lack of interest in a web-based version of Scrivener, and significant skepticism about purported “neutral platform” development tools.
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That’s a shame. I would even be willing to pay a monthly subscription for platform neutral/web based software like this. Huge missed opportunity in my opinion.
I should have specified better when I said “cloud based” here, I should have said “cloud first”. Wavemaker supports full offline capability through its PWA, however, it is completely cloud based with how it syncs. When it’s offline you have all the same tools, but the connection backs up your saves. I think Scrivener should take a page out of Wavemaker’s book. Sure it’s a little rough around the edges, but it is a great example that shows what’s possible. If we can have apps like Figma in the browser, Scrivener is definitely possible.
I assume that’s because you have something like 4.99 in mind. Realistically, after Scrivener goes subscription, the two or three remaining customers would pay a couple hundred bucks a month for a way less powerful app.
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He has spoken about the difficulty of producing the iOS version from the macOS sources even though both platforms have shared toolkits and created by the same company. The issue, I vaguely recall, was to do with the vast differences in interactions of the two Apple produced platforms;keyboard versus touch. As Android provides nothing similar to those Apple toolkits and likely cannot inherit anything from either Apple or Windows versions I can understand the skepticism over “neutral” tools.
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QT runs on Android, so at least some aspects of Windows Scrivener can be leveraged for Android Scrivener development.
For reference, see this older post by Keith and this more recent one by Tiho (in regards to Android Scapple!).
Best,
Jim
37% is not a ‘dip’ it’s a raging collapse! Chromebox may say ‘nothing to worry about’, but I (and a number of market commentators) disagree.
You mention Apple seeing sales dips from time to time. Yes, but certainly nowhere near those figures. Apple has a ‘bad’ quarter if sales dip a few points, and there’s usually a bounce the following quarter.
‘Battery Life - yes, you can get great battery life on a lot of devices nowadays. Not nearly as much on lower end devices though. In these cases, Chromebooks excel.’ The stats I gave, show MacBooks with up to double the battery life of a quality Chromebook, with significantly greater performance.
The Chromebooks the school threw out were mid range and purchased because of special offers promoted by Google from memory. The reality they are finding is, the Macs and iPads are giving them a lower lifetime cost. They don’t want to spend similar money on a platform that in their mind gives far less quality, usability and less access to quality apps.
Re comparative pricing. The reality is the VAST majority of Android devices worldwide are not just ‘affordable’ but in fact ‘cheap’. Many ship with outdated versions of Android and extremely limited or no version upgrade path. The last stats I recall had higher end Android making up less than 20% of the total market.
You also mention saturation. I don’t think any market is approaching that. What we are seeing is a drop off in PC sales due to several reasons including a run on sales early in the pandemic, so replacement sales have been pushed back in time. I wouldn’t call that saturation. During all this, Mac sales and market share continue to grow.
Apps exclusively on iOS (walled garden you said) can be written for Android if the developer wishes to. Apple has never placed any restriction there, so I’m not sure how you come to the ‘if Apple were to…play nicely’. What many developers find is the PAYING demand is on iOS.
You say you can guarantee a majority of sales are games. That is true, but I’m not sure how it supports your argument. That is the very category where apps tend to be cross-platform - the biggest market. When you filter down to complex apps, those are the ones that require significant development commitment and more likely to be limited to a performance platform of customers prepared to spend.
You go on to mention a subscription and Web App version. I for one would drop Scrivener if it ever became a progressive web app and/or subscription. I’ve played with a couple of web apps and found them frustrating and unsatisfactory. As for subscription. I dropped Ulysses the day it went sub.
As JimRac mentioned, QT runs on Android and L&L have core code for Scrivener and Snapple working on Android. I’m sure in time Android versions will be released and the market will show if there really are enough people on Android who are prepared to pay for L&L quality apps.
Lastly, you mentioned the Linux beta. Ever thought why, after all these years it’s an unsupported beta and not in active development? Insufficient paying market to justify the time and cost in bringing it to market?
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