WIndows 3 Release: My Thoughts

[DavidR]

@devinganger

@DavidR

Devinganger, you’ve helped countless people solve real, solvable problems on these forums (another thing that newcomers, focusing only on the release date issue, may not know). But IMO (note lack of H), snark like “self-important screed” and “Oh, you’re cute too” is worse than unhelpful. Put tacks in your pea shooter if you want; just be careful not to inhale. (And don’t try telling me I’m cute; I already know. )

But you are cute!

I try to be kind and helpful, I really do. It’s not always my first instinct, and I have had to cultivate it as a deliberate choice over my adult life. Having said that, watching people jump into a community and ignore all of the context while only focusing on their own narrow sense of entitlement, and doing so while going out of their way to crap on people, is not behavior I will ever again let slide.

People who pride themselves on brutal honesty (“I’m not insulting you, I’m just stating facts”) all too often spend so much time focusing on the “brutal” that “honesty” gets sacrificed. And I’m not down with that. If people are going to be bullies, I’m going to call them on it. If L&L don’t like that, they can delete my account now.

Thanks for this thoughtful response. I always appreciate when people are willing to be open enough to talk about their work on themselves. Me, I’m one of the most tactful people you’d ever meet; but I find that I can be shockingly ready to harangue people in an online venue like this. (I’ve gotten into some tussles on the Evernote forums.) Somehow the distancing effect of this sort of place lets my inner snark jerk make himself known. I think it is important to carefully craft not only posts here but their tone and speaking self. Heh heh, almost like being a writer.

Has anyone ever written an epistolary novel entirely in the form of online forum posts?

[ThomasHSteine]

I am also anxiously awaiting Scrivener V3. I’m a relatively new user. I am impressed with my current v1.9. I use it almost daily.

I used to be in the frustration camp. Then I remembered my day job. I am a software developer. I’ve been doing this a long time. 42 years. If you are not a developer, you need to understand that this is a young industry. Other’s (medical, agriculture, metalworking, shipping, law, writing) have been around for thousands of years. We developers are still trying to figure this all out. What does it mean to be a professional? What does it mean to make a commitment? How much should you commit to in advance? What is the right way to produce a product? Believe me when I say these are not easy questions and the answers are elusive at best. So far the only thing we know for sure is that you can have it good, fast, or cheap… and you can only pick two.

I know the frustration the L&L team is experiencing. You cannot say anything harsher than they are already saying to themselves. This is a creative act. They are keenly aware of your disappointment.

Please also understand that adding more programmers to the team is not likely to produce a positive result, especially if they are in the last mile. We all hope it is the last mile. But understand that they are aiming at a target that is moving. Developing a software product is almost always an act of discovery. They need something more valuable than the small amount we have paid for the working and sufficient v1.9. They need our support. Not a lot to ask really.

They also need to stay positively motivated. And that is a human-to-human thing. They know they have not met your expectations. “Clarifying” that will not get the job done faster or with high quality.

L&L, take the time to get it right. Take a day off if you are not already doing so. Clear your heads. The shortest distance is not a straight line. We will be there with you. If some users choose to walk away that’s ok too. We’ll be here to celebrate with you.

Regards,
THS

[DavidR]

Brilliantly put, ThomasHSteine. Humane, broad of vision and broad of mind. Thank you! You encourage me to remain strongly in the mode of support and encouragement.

I especially appreciate the reminder “you can have it good, fast, or cheap… and you can only pick two.” L&L have gone for good and cheap, and that cuts fast out of the picture.

[jesuslpgc]

@DavidR

I think the divide we’re seeing is between long-time and relatively long-time Scrivener users (like me), on the one hand, and people who bought the program a year or so ago.

The former have been around long enough to get to know Lit & Lat and its staff, and appreciate their dedication, integrity, and hard work. We’re disappointed and chagrined about how long v. 3 is taking; but we also know how small a shop it is, how unwilling they are to ship an advanced beta as a finished product, and how useful either v. 1.9 or the advanced beta of v. 3 actually is.

The latter, as ensorcell exemplifies, bought a program that they thought was going to be updated to v. 3 in the very near future, based on statements L&L was making at the time. Those statements were regrettable and regrettably off-target, and L&L has regretted them, publicly and more than once. But that doesn’t change the fact that they were made, and that they raised certain expectations in new customers.

These two viewpoints reflect two different experiences, and I think we ought to be able to put down our pea shooters long enough to acknowledge that there is valid experience on both sides. Long-time users are not just being cultishly defensive; newer users are not just whining. And neither group is getting jack done that is worth anything while sniping and counter-sniping at the others (and do remember, it’s just pea shooters).

Ensorcell’s question “When does someone draw a line and start throwing resources at getting Version 3 for Windows completed?” seems reasonable, except that there just aren’t any more resources to throw. Please do remember the pittance you paid for Scrivener. It’s intentionally priced for starving artists to buy; but that means starving the development staff in turn.

Devinganger, you’ve helped countless people solve real, solvable problems on these forums (another thing that newcomers, focusing only on the release date issue, may not know). But IMO (note lack of H), snark like “self-important screed” and “Oh, you’re cute too” is worse than unhelpful. Put tacks in your pea shooter if you want; just be careful not to inhale. (And don’t try telling me I’m cute; I already know. )

Bottom line: very few people come here just to be aggravating: they’re frustrated, they need help, they want to help. A little bit of considering the other person’s perspective can go a long way toward (heh) de-visualizing whirled peas.

Thanks for a well thought, balanced post.

[jesuslpgc]

@devinganger

@Synth

was that useful or constructive?

You don’t feel that it’s constructive when someone says you’re cute? I personally find it very constructive for my self-esteem, but your mileage may vary, I guess.

It seems that in the past you were a helpful and nice character in this forum. Sad that newcomers only seem to find this jaded, one-trick-pony façade.

[devinganger]

@jesuslpgc

@devinganger

@Synth

was that useful or constructive?

You don’t feel that it’s constructive when someone says you’re cute? I personally find it very constructive for my self-esteem, but your mileage may vary, I guess.

It seems that in the past you were a helpful and nice character in this forum. Sad that newcomers only seem to find this jaded, one-trick-pony façade.

Only newcomers who think that it’s cool to be a bully, bro.

[system]

@jesuslpgc

It seems that in the past you were a helpful and nice character in this forum. Sad that newcomers only seem to find this jaded, one-trick-pony façade.

Unnecessarily nasty.

Though there are subjects I strongly disagree with Devinganger, and yes he can be prickly, if you look beyond his responses to some posters who’s sole reason for existence seem to be to complain, you will find a majority of helpful posts for members wanting to know how to work with Scrivener, but that was never your reason for being on the forum

[jesuslpgc]

@Astaff

@jesuslpgc

It seems that in the past you were a helpful and nice character in this forum. Sad that newcomers only seem to find this jaded, one-trick-pony façade.

Unnecessarily nasty.

Though there are subjects I strongly disagree with Devinganger, and yes he can be prickly, if you look beyond his responses to some posters who’s sole reason for existence seem to be to complain, you will find a majority of helpful posts for members wanting to know how to work with Scrivener, but that was never your reason for being on the forum

If you expect my dignifying your lame excuse of a tirade with something resembling a coherent post you got another thing coming (as Judas Priest dixit).

[jesuslpgc]

@devinganger

@jesuslpgc

@devinganger

You don’t feel that it’s constructive when someone says you’re cute? I personally find it very constructive for my self-esteem, but your mileage may vary, I guess.

It seems that in the past you were a helpful and nice character in this forum. Sad that newcomers only seem to find this jaded, one-trick-pony façade.

Only newcomers who think that it’s cool to be a bully, bro.

Perhaps some empathy a la DavidR would’ve been more helpful than throwing cutes all around. As a matter of fact his post made me rethink my position, download the latest beta and try to contribute by suggesting some translation of menu items into Spanish. With no success because I suspect I posted it on the wrong subsection

I’m not a.programmer and cannot contribute little else except by reporting a bug if by chance I find anything.

[AmberV]

We appreciate all help and feedback! Thanks for that. It may not always get a response, even in the beta forum, but they are noted internally. Localisation in particular, as you can imagine, is something done toward the very end of the development process, so it might be a while, but you have some good points made.

And yeah, you had posted it in the wrong section. No worries though, I looked it up and moved it.

[Synth]

@AmberV

Localisation in particular, as you can imagine, is something done toward the very end of the development process, so it might be a while, but you have some good points made.

Weren’t we in the end stretch? And if you ever need help with french translation, I’m around.

[jesuslpgc]

@AmberV

We appreciate all help and feedback! Thanks for that. It may not always get a response, even in the beta forum, but they are noted internally. Localisation in particular, as you can imagine, is something done toward the very end of the development process, so it might be a while, but you have some good points made.

And yeah, you had posted it in the wrong section. No worries though, I looked it up and moved it.

¡¡¡Graciñas!!!

[Prometheus]

@takirks

I have to be brutally honest… I think the people bitching about things relating to the release of 3.0 are hypocritical. If the L&L folks released a premature version as 3.0, then I’d be the one angry with them.

No, they aren’t. They’re taking L&L at face value regarding the setting of dates for a WinV3 release and becoming frustrated as each successive date comes and goes, without a general release. Perfectly understandable, and what David touches on.

The people who always yell at newbs to get off their lawn and go look at the posts in the forums just don’t get it. People are not going to do that when what they encounter on the first visit is the nasty crap that bubbles up because (yet another) person comes to the forums looking for information. Here’s a tip for the odltimer crowd: if you don’t like having to say “it will be released when it will be released”, how about just saving your snarky, nasty remarks and stop driving people away from what you say is a valuable resource (this forum) but in which you apparenly brook no dissent.

[devinganger]

@Prometheus

@takirks

I have to be brutally honest… I think the people bitching about things relating to the release of 3.0 are hypocritical. If the L&L folks released a premature version as 3.0, then I’d be the one angry with them.

No, they aren’t. They’re taking L&L at face value regarding the setting of dates for a WinV3 release and becoming frustrated as each successive date comes and goes, without a general release.

Without, I will note, also taking L&L at face value for all of the accompanying verbiage that says these dates are estimates.

[system]

@Prometheus

Here’s a tip for the odltimer crowd: if you don’t like having to say “it will be released when it will be released”, how about just saving your snarky, nasty remarks and stop driving people away from what you say is a valuable resource (this forum) but in which you apparenly brook no dissent.

Perhaps a better tip is, those who complain about V3 not being released yet, and ESTIMATED RELEASE being missed, bad mouthing the L&L team, demanding consequences, perhaps show a little respect for the hard work being put in by the team and cut their nasty remarks. Most of what you claim is nasty from oldtimers is calling out those angry people.

No one minds a polite general question despite a quick look giving all the information needed. We do get annoyed by the trolls who climb out from under their bridge to bitch and tell the developers how to suck eggs.

[Ensorcell]

@devinganger

Oh, you’re cute too. Pop quiz: how long did Google keep Gmail in beta?

When the open beta testing for Scrivener 3.x started, they told us explicitly that the program was not feature complete and that it would take as long as it took. They gave us an estimate of how long they thought that would be. But many people out there see a date or ETA and take it as gospel truth instead of an estimate.

I do not see why I am quoted as taking the release date as gospel. I never said such a thing. I did say that a release should be done in a reasonable amount of time as is expected. In other words do not say you are close to releasing a product when you are really not. I personally think that 10 months or more is more than enough time to complete a product if a company states it is that close to a final release. It is misleading.

Oh and please do not twist someones words in to something they did not say. I even went as far as saying that L&L do not and still have not done anything legal wrong, (to the best of my knowledge).

It is all about perspective. Do you honestly believe that your boss or a client would be happy if you told them you would have a project complete soon and 10 months or more later it was still not done? Just being realistic.

[Huskey]

To all the critics out there: you guys might or might not have a point. Who cares? Either you are happy with the current product as it is or you are going to a different company for a “better” product.
And one more thing that gets on my nerves: one question that never gets answered by a critic is, what features do you miss that the current beta version doesn’t deliver? And one more, I guess the final release, whenever that is, won’t be perfect. Nothing is perfect!

[lunk]

@Huskey

one question that never gets answered by a critic is, what features do you miss that the current beta version doesn’t deliver?

… or what is it you desperately need to be able to do that the current 1.9 version can’t do?

[devinganger]

@Ensorcell

It is all about perspective. Do you honestly believe that your boss or a client would be happy if you told them you would have a project complete soon and 10 months or more later it was still not done? Just being realistic.

I have, in fact, been in that very position multiple times throughout my career. And yes, both boss and clients were VERY happy with my work, thank you for asking! In all cases, everyone understood that there were many factors outside of my control (or theirs, for that matter) and that in many cases, there were times when I insisted on slowing down the pace of a task that look simple/easy and discovered that it had potential landmines. Going slowly and thinking to the future helped us resolve quite a few nasty problems before we uncovered them the hard way.

So that’s a great metaphor for this beta!

Also, one important thing to keep in mind: we are not L&L’s bosses, nor are we their clients. We are their customers, and that is a small but important difference. We purchase the product they sell today. It is a transaction at its core, not a relationship.

[Thanatos0042]

I know I’m new and late to register to the party, but…

I work for a company that told their customers the product would be released by the end of the year. That time came and went and 9 months after when the product was released some customers had been lost, some had moved on and some didn’t trust us or or products but were stuck due to contracts. Complaint feedback was of course the delay, but also a lack of communication on what was going on.

So, the next big product they released was released on time, even though it wasn’t ready. It was buggy, crashed, caused serious problems for some customers, made customer revert back to the old stuff. We lost customers, customers who stayed felt burned and so we lost credibility.

i kinda wonder how they stay in business sometimes and am glad I am not a devleoper (I work phone support). The point I was making was that at both ends of the spectrum you can run into problems.

Most of the companies I have worked for in my career managed to find some level of balance between product release days and delaying the release as necessary. They key that always worked for them was ongoing communication with the cutomer base…

Most of these companies wouldn’t release long and detailed explainations on what was going on, but what they would do is release a little paragraph blurb which gave a brief overview of progress for a couple of weeks - was slow and bumpy, was quick and easy, got stuck on an issue, soolved a big issue, etc.

It went a long way in quelling a lot of unhappy customers, though not all of them by any means.

I can see from the beta’s that L&L is working hard to get the product out and I respect and appreciate that. I check every few weeks to see what’s changed, but I can’t help wish their progress updates wer just a little bit meatier so I could get some idea, some perspective on how things are progressing. I find a list of squished bugs just a bit lacking, overall.

My biggest issues is that since the licensing issues, I experience random lock up’s and crashes with the 1.9 version and I don’t know about anyone else, but I’d rather wait for the 3.0 retail version to release instead of spending time troubleshooting a version that EOL.

To be fair too - I don’t write consistently enough or often enough for it to really affect what I do either.

Anyway, my $.02 worth. I am eagerly, if a little bit impatiently, waiting for the new release.