Advanced Search and Replace: emojis to text in a specific font

[kewms]

@marksealey

Putting Scrivener aside for a moment, what is the structure that you ultimately want in your document?

Just a handful (< 20) ‘top level’ categories. Up to now, these have been Note Folders, each containing one or more Notes with text in.

Then those are your Section Types: Note Folders and Notes.

The names of things are just words. That is, Scrivener doesn’t care whether you call your top level division a “Part” or a “Scene” or a “Flightless Bird.”

So can I call each Topic by its own name (in my animal example: mammals, quadrupeds, amphibians); but the important thing is that I have to define and apply Section Types to each top level Note Folder?

Yes. Probably each top level Note Folder should have the same Section Type, assuming you’ll ultimately want to format them the same. Scrivener can make that assignment automatically if they are all at the same level in the Binder.

…Each document title will get whatever formatting you assign to that document’s hierarchical level

It’s title?

Sorry, I wasn’t very precise.
A key thing to understand is that Section Types are a feature of the text. They tell Scrivener what kind of document an item is. Section Layouts are a feature of the Compile Format. They tell Scrivener how things should look. The whole point is that the Section Type doesn’t need to change, because you can use different Section Layouts for different needs.
So.
First you define a Section Type, say “Note Folder,” and assign it to your Note Folders. This happens in the Inspector or in the right-hand pane of the main Compile screen.
Then, in the Compile Format, you define the Section Layout that should be applied to that Section Type. It could be anything, but let’s call it “Top Level.”
In the Top Level Section Layout specification, you check the box for “Title,” which will cause Scrivener to include the Binder title of that item, and will cause “Section Title” dummy text to appear in the preview area.
Apply whatever formatting you want to the dummy text. For the purposes of this specific problem, assigning the Heading 1 Style will ensure that the destination application recognizes it as a “Heading 1.”

In Scrivener you can call that formatting “Heading 1,” “Heading 2,” etc., but you can also call it “Part Title,” “Chapter Title,” “Scene Title.”

Are those the names of Note Folders/Notes; or the Section Types I define and apply to them?

Those are the names of the Section Layouts you use.

…In other words, assign Styles to the text that you want to be recognized when you re-split the document to bring it back into Scrivener…

Assign Styles, not Section Types?

Assign a Style to the “Section Title” dummy text in the Section Layout that you want to use for this specific Section Type. (Yes, I know that “Section” is being used in too many different ways. Sorry.)
In this specific example, assign the Heading 1 Style to the “Section Title” dummy text in the Top Level Section Layout which is assigned to the Note Folder Section Type.

Why would I want to assign all top level folders (which - in the way I have it set up - are just named containers for my topics) to have a, say, Heading 1 style?

You don’t. You want the name of the top level folder to have a Heading 1 style in the output document you are creating. Why? Because the style will survive the round-trip to the editor you use to fix your emoji problem, and can then be used to re-split the document when you import it back to Scrivener.

[marksealey]

Thanks!

So…

@kewms

…Yes. Probably each top level Note Folder should have the same Section Type…

I should define and apply Section Types to (for the sake of argument):

• top/root level Notes
• top/root level Note folders
• level 1 Notes
• level 2 Note folders
• = and so on down to =
• level 4 Notes
• level 4 Note folders

Four is the lowest level I have.

Is that right?

Sorry, I wasn’t very precise.

No problem whatsoever! Very grateful for your help and persistence here!

I think I follow your next few paras. Shall experiment observing that distinction between Section Types (associated with documents) and Layouts (for Compile).

I’ll try with a completely new document. I’ll also use ODT and see if I can reproduce the same hierarchy on re-import as I wanted, and as was there before I compiled.

Presumably, because I’m only doing all of this in order to make those font changes (or perhaps because I must have been a very bad person in a former life), I could conceivably change those Section attributes afterwards?

Thanks again!

[kewms]

@marksealey

I should define and apply Section Types to (for the sake of argument):

• top/root level Notes
• top/root level Note folders
• level 1 Notes
• level 2 Note folders
• = and so on down to =
• level 4 Notes
• level 4 Note folders

Four is the lowest level I have.

Is that right?

For as many levels as you have structure in the Binder, yes.

@marksealey

Presumably, because I’m only doing all of this in order to make those font changes (or perhaps because I must have been a very bad person in a former life), I could conceivably change those Section attributes afterwards?

Yes, that’s the point. You can keep the same Section Types and use completely different Section Layouts to get whatever you want your final output document to look like.

[marksealey]

Thank you, @kewms. Have been working on other projects this week. Plan to give it a try over the weekend. Your help appreciated…

[marksealey]

I have just returned to this after ten days engrossed in another project altogether.

I’m afraid I’m still not making much progress.

I created a hierarchy (faded at the left of this grab). Then went to Project > Project Settings > Section Types to try and assign Section Types (Default Types by Structure). Was that the right thing to do first?

I’ve obviously misunderstood the way Scrivener hierarchies work, though, because - as you can see - whereas I’d assumed that, say, a Level 2 Folder and a Level 2 Note were at the same level conceptually, it looks as though there is some ‘inheritance’ of level naming. Yes?

I exported to .odt format, ignored the warnings about Java versions, and tried re-importing splitting by Section Types. But everything came in at one level.

File attached: section types.zip (76.3 KB)

I’m usually a reasonably quick learner (!) But there’s obviously something really simple that I’m missing. My apologies. Is there a summary step-by-step instruction that I could follow to get this into my head, please?

[kewms]

@marksealey

I exported to .odt format, ignored the warnings about Java versions, and tried re-importing splitting by Section Types. But everything came in at one level.

That would be the expected behavior, since you assigned the same Section Types to all of the folders.

Folders and Files are treated differently by default, to accommodate, say, having a folder for each chapter with a file for each scene within it.

[marksealey]

So do I have to define completely new Section Types; and perhaps actually name them (in my music case) ‘Chords’, ‘Harmony’, Rhythm’ etc?

Would those be the Folders?

How would I name the Notes’ Section Types? The same Section Type for every note at a certain Level?

[kewms]

Please refer back to this post:

Advanced Search and Replace: emojis to text in a specific font

Just a handful (< 20) ‘top level’ categories. Up to now, these have been Note Folders, each containing one or more Notes with text in. Then those are your Section Types: Note Folders and Notes. So can I call each Topic by its own name (in my animal example: mammals, quadrupeds, amphibians); but the important thing is that I have to define and apply Section Types to each top level Note Folder? Yes. Probably each top level Note Folder should have the same Section Type, assuming you’ll ult…

You want a Section Type for each level of hierarchy that you want to reproduce in the output document. So, in this case, you might simply call them “Root Level Folder,” “Level 1 Folder,” “Level 2 Folder,” and so on.

Then you would assign Section Layouts as (for example):
Root Level Folder ↔ Heading 1
Level 1 Folder ↔ Heading 2
and so on.

And similarly for Notes.

[marksealey]

Thanks, @kewms, as always!

I first set up in Project > Project Settings… > Section Types what I hope are Section Type definitions (with somewhat cumbersome names - for clarity for me, really) thus:

I then assigned them (again in Project > Project Settings… > Section Types), thus:

Was I right, so far?

Then, in Compile:

where - as you can see - I had a question. Assuming that was expected, this was how I compiled:

It did open in LibreOffice, but didn’t look right. When I created a new Scrivener document and split on Structure, it was all in one note as before. I can’t help I’m close. I appreciate your patience.

File here:

section types.zip (77.9 KB)

[kewms]

Almost there!

Now you need a Section Layout for each Section Type. (That’s the whole point. They need to be formatted differently so that Scrivener will know they are different when you re-import the file.) See this post up-thread for guidance:

Advanced Search and Replace: emojis to text in a specific font

Just a handful (< 20) ‘top level’ categories. Up to now, these have been Note Folders, each containing one or more Notes with text in. Then those are your Section Types: Note Folders and Notes. So can I call each Topic by its own name (in my animal example: mammals, quadrupeds, amphibians); but the important thing is that I have to define and apply Section Types to each top level Note Folder? Yes. Probably each top level Note Folder should have the same Section Type, assuming you’ll ult…

[drmajorbob]

How cumbersome!

You don’t need different types for different levels unless they have to be formatted differently and you intend to use the optional compile by structure feature (which I don’t recommend; it’s a primitive holdover from older Scrivener versions).

I recommend descriptive names relating to the format (bold and centered or small caps and no first line indent) or the document purpose (chapter, epigraph, or scene with separator).

A section layout can be assigned to multiple section types, if they need the same text formatting, even if they’ll have different separators.

[marksealey]

Thanks.

At least I’m making some progress; though I hope this doesn’t undo all the good work :

Not sure which DIFFERENT formats I could/would define/apply/design/apply, though.

Because each of the (in this case - and almost exactly what I will want in the final document - four, potentially five) ‘levels’ has the same format.

Going back to my animal analogy/parallel, I might have nine phyla folders at the top level:

1. insects
2. mammals
3. birds
4. fish
5. reptiles
6. amphibians
7. …
8. etc
9. …

Conceptually, these are identical. Just holders into which to put up to a dozen types of - say, for #2 - mammals: quadrupeds, bovine, domestic, feral, cloven hoof (I’m no biologist ) - all as ‘Species folders’ under/into the (in this case) ‘Mammals’ folder.

In that ‘Domestic’ folder I might have , for instance, three more levels: perhaps, such as ‘costly’, ‘get-from-a-shelter’, ‘exotic’ as well as a note or two under/in/referring to the general topic of domestic animal husbandry!

Then ‘cats’ as a further sub-folder in ‘get-from-a-shelter’, under which are, say, half a dozen actual pure text notes - on ‘feeding’, ‘recognizing the species’, ‘whether to groom’, ‘expected lifespan’ and so on.

Every single Note has the same format.

I can pretty much say that each and every Note will have (in addition, maybe, to a graphic or table):

1. a title (bold, 24 pt and centred)
2. a larger heading (22 pt and bold)
3. a smaller heading (14 pt and also bold)
4. text (Palatino 12 pt etc)
5. both numbered and unnumbered lists

That’s the only place where I’ll need different actual styles/styled text - within each note. Yet every Note throughout the entire Project will want (up to) the same set of five text styles.

I can’t see how or why I can format a Scrivener Folder with different characteristics and attributes. Aren’t they all just holders?

Or have I misunderstood again? If so, I apologize and still have the energy to get this right - if you do, please

@kewms

Almost there!
Now you need a Section Layout for each Section Type. (That’s the whole point. They need to be formatted differently so that Scrivener will know they are different when you re-import the file.) See this post up-thread for guidance:

[marksealey]

Thanks, Bobby!

I’m obviously missing something about the extent to which Scrivener can make use of Sections, Styles and formats etc.

All I need is to be able to export a Scrivener project with Compile, work on it externally, and - when I re-import it on split - have it retain the outline structure which I built.

That structure has (say, five) levels of Folders and sub- (and sub-sub- and sub-sub-sub- etc!) folders, each containing one or many documents (Scrivener Notes). All notes have the same format.

All folders and notes work according to what I suppose is a hierarchical structure not unlike the hierarchical structure of modern filesystems and their (sub-/sub-sub-) directories/folders.

I really appreciate the patience of everyone here who is slowly but surely assisting me to make the most of Scrivener

[kewms]

@marksealey

Conceptually, these are identical. Just holders into which to put up to a dozen types of - say, for #2 - mammals: quadrupeds, bovine, domestic, feral, cloven hoof (I’m no biologist ) - all as ‘Species folders’ under/into the (in this case) ‘Mammals’ folder.

Right. Conceptually identical items should have the same Section Type and Section Layout. Conceptually different items should be different.

@marksealey

I can’t see how or why I can format a Scrivener Folder with different characteristics and attributes. Aren’t they all just holders?

A Scrivener Folder compiled to another format is no longer “just” a container. It can be used to tell the other format what kind of thing it is. That’s why a “Level 1 Folder” needs a different Section Layout from a “Level 3 Folder,” because you want them to carry different information to the destination program.

[marksealey]

Right. Conceptually identical items should have the same Section Type and Section Layout. Conceptually different items should be different.

Perhaps my introduction of the word ‘conceptual’ has misled me!

I simply want a Project with a structure five levels deep. Each level can potentially have:

• Folders and Notes
• Folders with Notes inside them
• Folders with Folders inside them

There’s nothing to distinguish these levels once from another.

All formatting of all Notes is essentially identical; or can draw on those half dozen or so possible styles applied to them.

Unlike, say, a novel where - perhaps - it’s divided into Books, Parts, Chapters, Sections, Paragraphs - and eventually even sentences, words and letters (!), this just needs to be 1 hundred or so Notes (near identically formatted text files) organized hierarchically according to topic; the topics have no conceptual differences. Except that they are… different :

• Harmony and all its aspects and subtopics arranged hierarchically
• Melody - which might be broken down according to: chords, themes, large form etc
• Rhythm
• Notation
• Dynamics
• Instrumentation
• etc

So in practice - back to the experimental Project I’m using here - with five levels (that is, five hierarchical folders - each with one or more (eventually many) Notes in each), doesn’t that mean that I need five Section Types?

One for each Level?

That doesn’t seem to have worked, though, does it.

@marksealey

I can’t see how or why I can format a Scrivener Folder with different characteristics and attributes. Aren’t they all just holders?

A Scrivener Folder compiled to another format is no longer “just” a container. It can be used to tell the other format what kind of thing it is.

Does that notion of ‘what kind’ mean to:

1. define it as a Folder as opposed to a Note, or
2. define it as a Folder at level x as opposed to level y

?

That’s why a “Level 1 Folder” needs a different Section Layout from a “Level 3 Folder,” because you want them to carry different information to the destination program.

So it’s an artificial distinction - only and exclusively to allow (in this case) LibreOffice to treat them as vertically different?

If so, what kind of attributes can I set in the Section Layouts… surely not fonts or colours - because the folders do not have those?

[kewms]

@marksealey

Does that notion of ‘what kind’ mean to:

1. define it as a Folder as opposed to a Note, or
2. define it as a Folder at level x as opposed to level y

Neither, since the destination application doesn’t understand “Folders” and “Notes” as concepts. Rather, the destination application understands hierarchy, as expressed in Styles like Heading 1, Heading 2, and so on.

@marksealey

So it’s an artificial distinction - only and exclusively to allow (in this case) LibreOffice to treat them as vertically different?

Yes. And also to allow Scrivener to recognize them as different when you re-import the document.

If so, what kind of attributes can I set in the Section Layouts… surely not fonts or colours - because the folders do not have those?

I’ve been suggesting that you assign a Style to the Section Title. Scrivener will then use the Styles in the re-imported document to decide where to split things up.

[drmajorbob]

@marksealey

All I need is to be able to export a Scrivener project with Compile, work on it externally, and - when I re-import it on split - have it retain the outline structure which I built.

I would never, ever reimport the compiled document. I can’t imagine a situation where I’d need to. I haven’t paid much attention to the details of this thread, but I doubt that you really need to do so, either … but that’s just me!

[xiamenese]

If you have read the whole thread, you will have seen that @marksealey’s problem is that he needs to replace hundreds of glyphs from the symbol range with the appropriate glyph in a musical notation font. In Scrivener, he would have to do them one by one as Scrivener’s Search and Replace is not format sensitive. In LibreOffice or NWP, that can be done as a single operation for each glyph in turn. That’s why compiling and re-importing is the way to go.

Unfortunately, he is finding settling up the compile stage troublesome. I’ve been staying out of it as @kewms is taking him through it. I will say this, though. It seems to me part of his problem has lain in a degree of confusion of content with structure, of which referring to binder documents as “notes” is perhaps symptomatic.

Mark

[kewms]

@marksealey

Unlike, say, a novel where - perhaps - it’s divided into Books, Parts, Chapters, Sections, Paragraphs - and eventually even sentences, words and letters (!), this just needs to be 1 hundred or so Notes (near identically formatted text files) organized hierarchically according to topic; the topics have no conceptual differences. Except that they are… different :

The key word in this paragraph is not “topic,” but hierarchy. From Scrivener’s point of view, it doesn’t matter whether you call them Parts/Chapters/Sections or Level 1/Level 2/Level 3. It’s still hierarchy and is still handled the same way.

The project as it currently sits in Scrivener has hierarchical structure that you would like to preserve through the round-trip to LibreOffice. Since LibreOffice has nothing comparable to Scrivener’s Binder, you need to label each section to indicate where it sits in the hierarchy. Styles are how you do that in LibreOffice, and Section Layouts are the tool Scrivener uses to apply Styles based on hierarchical level.

[kewms]

Since we’ve been at this for close to a month and you still seem to be struggling, there is another possibility. Simply ignore the emoji/font problem until a later stage.

That is, leave it the way it is in Scrivener. Make the change only when/if you are taking the text (or part of the text) out of Scrivener for good, and therefore don’t need to worry about re-importing it back.

HOWEVER, you’ll still need to work with the Compile command to get your work out, so in the long term it probably behooves you to wrap your head around how it works.