Has Windows Version 3 Been Scrapped?

Scrivener Scrivener for Windows
61

Well. You are mixing me up with someone else, the reference made by Katherine to a member with 28 posts was not to me. I also did not suggest banning anyone. As for the attack in your second paragraph, I’m taken aback. It’s completely unfounded. I have tried to help out here when I can. As for your pejoratives … “Bullshit … Campfire buddies … existing solely to bitch … bitch bitch bitch …” Interesting refutation of my point that some people here are incredibly rude. And I’ll say it again, you are mistaken if you think I am new, or have only 28 posts. That’s quite easy to check.

I hate to resort to the report button. Used it for the first and only time recently, it hasn’t made a difference. I’m disappointed that your advice about culture was delivered to me, not to the post by Astaff quoting me.

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It was delivered to the forum as a whole. That’s precisely why I didn’t quote anyone in particular. You are welcome to examine your own posts and decide whether or not they contribute to a helpful, friendly tone.

Katherine

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Thanks for the clarification, Katherine.

64

Right, not a promise.

They could just as easily be referencing prior estimates, not making a promise. The phrasing is too ambiguous to say for certain. It could have been something like “We’re definitely going to have this out by the end of Q2 2019”, but that’s conjecture without the full quote. “By the end of Q2 2019” could have been prefaced with something like “we’re aiming to release it” and the statement becomes “We’re aiming to release it by the end of Q2 2019” which is far from a promise. As with all things wording is key. Without the full quote, we can’t say for certain. So, no I’m not counting that as a promise.

Most likely is NOT a promise. If you say you’ll mostly likely stopping at the grocery store after work, you aren’t making a firm commitment. You probably will go, but there’s a chance you won’t.

I understand people’s frustration, but it’s silly to put words in Literature and Latte’s mouth. They’ve released estimates, nothing more.

It’s a situation I understand all too well. I worked retail for a number of years, and I would frequently encounter customers asking me when a certain item would be back in stock. I would tell them that we had a truck on , and that they could call and see if the merchandise had come back in. I didn’t have a way of checking what was on the truck as the manifest didn’t usually drop into the computer until just before the trailer had arrived and even then it was dozens and sometimes over a hundred pages long and filled with very generic product descriptions that weren’t usually very helpful. Occasionally, I would have a customer who did not bother to call and would instead come in, find the shelf empty, and accuse me of lying when the item I had 'promised would arrive ’ was not in stock. See in parallels there?

I, for one, am perfectly happy using the very stable beta version which is available right now for download. And even then, 1.9.X is perfectly functional and still a very capable piece of software. I could easily switch back to the older version and it would be more than adequate for whatever project I threw at it.

Could Literature and Latte done a better job at communicating? Most definitely, but so much of what they’ve said as been completely misrepresented or been blown out of proportion. Is it frustrating the Scrivener 3 development has taken so long? Certainly, but might I suggest instead of complaining over and over and over again, people do something a little more constructive with their time? Like, say, I don’t know, doing a little writing? It’s become pretty obvious by now that no amount of complaining is going to push Scrivener out any faster.

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There have been several formal complaints about this and related threads, and several users have been formally warned. At this time, I am not redacting posts or muting people, but those are the next steps.

I would advise all participants in this thread to move on to other topics. Or maybe go write something.

Katherine

66

The only proof is my distinct memory of “Coming in 2018” and the excited anticipation of getting version 3.0.

However, I do have supporting evidence. In June of 2018, I wrote to LL asking when we could expect Scrivener 3.0 for Windows. On June 24th, 2018 I received an email from [Personal information removed] which said: “I just know what I’ve been told and that it’s coming sometime this year. I wish I could be more specific.”

So while noncommittal about an actual date and not really a “promise”, this is pretty good evidence that someone at LL thought 3.0 was going to be released in 2018 and shared this information with the public. It was shared on the website as “Coming in 2018” and shared with me specifically by rebeca.

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Agreed this is frustrating, but primarily from the vantage point of its ‘unnaturalness.’ Platform transitions typically do not take this long, and this has been VERY long since its first declaration. It has that ‘something ain’t right’ feel about it and it continues to propagate every time there’s another commitment to non-commitment.

Now that being said, I’m perfectly fine with my present version. It works and I’m fairly comfortable with its basic functions. I have plenty of time to become familiar with its more extensive features as my document continues to evolve. But I would be remiss not to add that it is most discomforting continuing to find more of the same every time I look for updates.

In addition, I’d ordered and received the Take Control of Scrivener 3 book- which has nothing to do with Windows 3, good lord, but was assured this book would serve my purposes and be updated with the new version free of charge with version 3 when it was made available.

Short version? This is not a typical development cycle. Not close.

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As a position, definitely, but it isn’t any different than I would have imagined. Where and when was this policy declaration published?

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Scanning the various bug reports and upgrade logs for the beta, you get a much better sense of the complexity of the software and the diligent process of ironing out the kinks.

I was nervous about using the beta’s, but I’ve been doing it for some time with only minor problems.

It has been clear for forever that L&L is a small development team. When I saw the problems last year with giving release dates, I personally adjusted my expectations. The team seem to know what is required and useful in the writing process and have produced software that is so far ahead of anything else out there that to my mind,

While I am looking forward to the transition from release candidate to full release, I’m not expecting it to seriously affect my own use of the beta. I will be extremely happy for L&L and their team though. They have my empathy and my support.

Scrivener 1.9 has been a huge enabler for me in my writing process. I will only ever be eternally grateful. I’m not meaning to diminish other people’s frustrations with the delays or bugs, but just thinking that in big picture, Scrivener has added to my life as a writer, not taken away.

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Just jumping in here because my experience is somewhat similar.

My ‘customer journey’ on this community site over the past couple of years has been to go directly to the beta download. And maybe every four months or so look in on a thread or two to see if there’ll be some point soon where I don’t have to keep re-installing Scrivener.

I’m a customer who doesn’t care about the daily minutiae of a community forum. I don’t care about building relationships over a piece of writing software. I don’t need to wade into long threaded technical replies. I actually don’t really know what happens in the rest of the forum.

But what’s real interesting is the truth of the experience in the poster’s words… a couple times a year I, too, come in here to check on status, and see the same phenomenon. Someone’s angsty about the glacial release date, and in ride the Valkyries of condescension. It’s just so… weird. It’s like my life goes on but the righteous apologism stays frozen in time.

I get it Katherine; it must feel like plowing your fingers through a cheese grater dealing with the triviality of this forum. Especially after botched commitments to a user base that have extended into multiple years. I’d be getting testy, too. I can see this in some of the terse pushback in your replies here. Maybe you’re sunnier in other areas of the site, I don’t know (nor care to explore – life is busy).

I’m only here because I’ve been chained to this Groundhog Day of beta installs. My experience of your company and its supporters comes through this narrow lens, and I’m sure I’m not unique in being this type of forced lurker. From where I sit, it’s a sophomoric look for you.

I’m not sure why I jumped in, just that something resonated with me here. I also know that you’re a small company with a unique product that fits my niche so maybe it’s useful to get feedback from my facet of your customer avatar. I don’t want to rail, more just to say that my experience aligns with that of the commenter – and we’re likely not the only ones who nearly never post but are forced to show up here monthly. So, for me and those like me, we’re only going to see this slice of your community and service until v3 is released and we can go back to not having to deal with this forum.

It’d be way simpler to see “yep, the release date is still totally fucked, not sure when it’s coming, sorry”. Full stop. Without the apologism or rudeness from longtime posters. Because it is annoying that I don’t have a product was promised to be around the corner when I purchased almost three years ago, and yeah, folks are going to burn you over that – repeatedly. Let them ask or vent, apologize with “yep, we’re super sorry for not meeting our committment, we promise we’re doing the best we can”, lock the thread, and move on. I don’t need both the annoyance of an undelivered product and then to watch your supporters throw pocket sand into the faces of those who express that annoyance.

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+1 to the complaints about some of the defensive people here.

I love Scrivener. I love L&L. I don’t have any issues with the delayed Windows release because I’m on the Mac, but I do understand the frustration of users, and the answer of Keith a couple of weeks ago was very refreshing and very honest - in a thread on Dropbox sync and the iOS version. The attitude in these forums of people constantly defending the company in any thread where there is criticism is becoming very tiring, and a reason I try not to visit these forums a lot anymore.

To give an example: I posted a bug in the BUG HUNT section of the iOS forum here. If I rotate my iPad during sync, Scrivener (and the sync) crashes. Someone else posted that they had the same problem. And then one of the ‘defenders’ (lunk) came in to say: ‘why not avoid rotating it while it syncs’?
In a damn bug hunt forum where one is expected to report bugs. I don’t understand how a constant attitude like that helps other users, helps the company or helps the developer. It’s encouraging to see that I’m not alone in being annoyed with this constant defending of a company in any criticism. Keith himself always has a very good no-nonsense attitude to criticism, and I always appreciate his answers and argumentations. But the answers and attitude of some other people here are very different.

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I probably shouldn’t jump in, either, but why not? I own a license of v1 of Scrivener and have been using it for years. For what I use it for, it’s great. Over the last year, I’ve been using the beta for v3. Again, for what I use it for, it’s been great, too. So, I like the software and will be upgrading to v3 when it (eventually) is released.

Having said that, there is really no excuse for a development cycle taking this long for a piece of software like Scrivener. People can talk about how complex it is or isn’t, but that shouldn’t really be the issue. A lot more complex software gets developer in a lot less time (even with lone-developers). It’s been literally years that v3 has been in development. What is this, the Duke Nukem of digital writing? (If you don’t know about Duke Nukem Forever, well, it was in development from 1996 to 2011 and was considered vaporware!)

From the customer’s perspective, it matters little how complex the development is or isn’t. What matters is the company has said, several time, in several ways, over several years, that v3 will soon be released. They even had a campaign offering v3 for free if v1 was purchased (indicating that v3 was soon to be released). From a customer’s perspective, especially prospective costumers, this is off-putting, to say the least.

As someone who rarely comes to this forum (mainly to check and see if an actual release is pending), it is even more off-putting to see how some here flock to attack anyone who would state their dissatisfaction with the delay in release of v3. It’s like a bunch of bullies trying to keep the peace by attempting to silence the voices of those who are dissatisfied. Yes, there is a v3 beta that we can all use. I think that’s great. Yes, those that are dissatisfied could be using this beta for free while waiting for v3 to eventually be released. But none of that addresses the actual dissatisfaction and, frankly, these people should be allowed to voice their concerns without being attacked. If someone does not want to use a beta, for whatever reason, whether their reason is a good one or not, they should not have to. Just because there is a beta does not invalidate their reason for being dissatisfied.

For the first few years using Scrivener v1, I never bothered with the forum. I didn’t have a need, I suppose. But when I saw that v3 was pending (years ago), I started to visit to see if I could get news about the update and, later, to check on the beta. After a few visits, that’s when I started to see the attacks on those that voiced their dissatisfaction. It’s a real turn-off. Until visiting this forum, I had a great impression of L&L and Scrivener, but the attacks by some members, including some of the snide remarks here on the forum from someone who works with L&L, causes me to rethink that position.

I’m still planning on upgrading to v3. But some of the voices from this community make it a more difficult choice. Thankfully, I can use the software without having to come here. And that’s a sad statement to make, when you think about it. A community like this should be quite welcoming, even to those that have a gripe about the continued delays of v3.

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No need to lock threads, silence the longtimers or silence the complainers, who aren’t wrong in the main, however tedious, repetitive, or pointless their gripes are by now. Better to make a dedicated subforum for these fallen-horse threads, with the requisite sticky L&L regrets for long-ago missed deadlines, and invitations to try the beta. Giving would-be posters in the genre a sense that they’re within their rights to grizzle about the long wait, but that their legitimate points have been long acknowledged and that there’s not much more to say. Giving moderators a way to “put it where the sun don’t shine” without extended discussion, and giving other forum users a way to exclude the subforum from “Active Topics” if that’s possible.

Rgds - Jerome

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Or we could all just write a novel together instead…

https://forum.literatureandlatte.com/t/niad-x/51403/1

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AgentArts whole post mirrors my own feelings. I come here less and less.

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I agree with EVERYTHING you said.
In fact, I registered just to post after years of lurking doing the same as you.
I’m a game designer and developer specialized in narrative design and currently studying software engineering.
A software development project that constantly gives estimates and then starts to delay the release is a project that is badly managed and badly developed.
The only reason I can think for the amount of delays WITHOUT a cancelation of a project, is manipulation by the development team, manipulation by the project manager or ineptitude by the stakeholders. Delaying a release is a loss of money. That’s why is software development it’s preferable to make cuts and compromises than to delay SO MANY TIMES. SPECIALLY when you take into account the great amount of agile development frameworks, there is just no excuse for a software development taking up so long.
It doesn’t matter the reason.
Why was Duke Nukem Forever delayed so many times? Because it was badly managed and the development process had to be started again and again.
Is the delay because of the coding style? Fire the development team and hire one that is capable of refactoring. or fire the manager/lead and hire one that is able to tell the team how to refactor and why.
Is the delay because of lack of communication between the team members? Fire the manager/lead and hire one that knows how to use different platforms.
Is the delay because the framework chosen to develop the program lacks the needed libraries/integrations/architecture/etc to code all the required functions? Fire the manager and hire one that knows how to choose a framework.
Etc.
I can’t think of ANY issue where a project manager/lead that delays a project SO MUCH, and fails to deliver a product on ANY date is not responsible and shouldn’t be fired. SPECIALLY if hired by a small company and if he has a small development team. The amount of money lost on this project must be HUGE.

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Firing the development team in the middle of a project is unlikely to improve the ultimate delivery time, as the new team then needs to come up to speed.

We do not comment on internal personnel matters.

Katherine

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Well, probably it’s the manager.
Good developers are numerous. Good managers… Not so much.
And of course it would help. If the manager is the responsible for the delays, getting a good one would ultimately speed up the development process. EVEN if that entails refactoring and retraining the team. After all, a good manager would be able to push the development, while a bad manager would continue to delay and slow down the project.
But leaving that aside… i think that at this point the question shouldn’t be if the project was scrapped, but if it SHOULDN’T be.

To clarify by the way; I’m not asking to discuss the internal workings of LL. I just want to say my opinion on what I see.

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I can think of several, but maybe that’s just because I’m older than you.
One example: if the project manager is also the owner of the very small company and part of the development team, or if the lead coder is a personal friend of the owner of the very small company, or if the company owner has already tried to hire new coders and that didn’t help in any way.

Creating a Win version of a Mac app with feature parity isn’t that easy. Have you any personal experience of that?

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I have personal experience on porting. Not to mac, the market for MAC games is not as huge (but it’s growing). It’s hard. A lot.
However, in the situations you described, I believe it’s still responsibility of the manager and should be fired.
If the manager is the owner or part of the team, he/she should have experience and knowledge managing projects. What’s happening with this one? If it’s such an issue, hiring a manager would be cheaper than keep delaying.
If the lead coder is a personal friend of the owner, it’s still his responsibility and he should be fired. Will it happen? Probably not, since in this situation we’re imagining, they are friends. That doesn’t change whose responsibility it is and who should be fired.
And finally, If hiring new developers didn’t help, then that makes it clear: It’s responsibility of the manager and he should be fired.