Keep with Next does not work - Please help

Hello. I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong, but I can’t seen to get Keep with Next to work. Here is an image of what I see after I compile.

The text “The LORD God said to the serpent” is a widow at the bottom of the page, but is part of the same Scripture quotation that continues on the next page with “Because you have done this.”

They are all the same style and the lines are separated by a single carriage return. There is a single tab after the carriage return. The number “24” is the verse reference and it has an added style of superscript,

The way I’ve tried this is to select that first line and choose Keep with Next. I tried selecting both lines and also choosing Keep with Next. The results are the same as you see in the attachment.

[attachment=0]Screen Shot 2020-10-01 at 8.31.13 AM.png[/attachment]

That should, in theory be working. Does the verse have a style assigned? The only way I could replicate what you are seeing is by having a style assigned to the text. If it does, try setting No Style and seeing what happens.

If it is the single case in the manuscript you could also just but an extra return in to push it to the next page.

Yes. The Scriptures have a block style. While I can put extra carriage returns at the front of the block for widows, it is not so easy for orphans. The only think I have been able to get to work is to use control[attachment=2]Screen Shot 2020-10-01 at 9.44.26 AM.png[/attachment][attachment=1]Screen Shot 2020-10-01 at 9.45.39 AM.png[/attachment][attachment=0]Screen Shot 2020-10-01 at 9.46.38 AM.png[/attachment]-return (Macintosh) as shown.

Just try selecting the verse and changing it to No Style. It may be the fact that it has a style that is causing the problem. If it works with No Style then there are ways to apply the same formatting manually.

Why would the rest of the text (all of my text has a style…nothing is ‘no style’) properly handle widows and orphans correctly, as it does, if a this is an issue with style?

Well, you trying out what the nice L&L support person is suggesting you try would give them more information to help figure out the answer to that question, no? You don’t have to full-on revise your entire WIP – just take one place where you know the issue happens, revert that text to no style (and manually format appropriately), and then re-compile to see if the issue goes away. If it doesn’t, that’s not the issue and you can revert; if it does, they have valuable data and can determine if there is an underlying bug.

Yes, I agree, of course with you, but it sounds like slinging mud against the wall to see what sticks.

My question is to tech support is could this be an issue with styles that have a narrower width, or what? If you have searched the forums you will see this is one of many complaints that the Keep with next does not work. Either we need to be told when the Keep with next works and doesn’t work, or it needs to be addressed.

I can do many work arounds, but the point is why should we have to do that? Widow and orphan control is not a new thing by any means. It basic feature that should work.

Keep With Next is a paragraph setting that is saved within paragraph styles, so the result in the compiled document will depend on the style settings in compile. Widows and orphans control is a document setting, not determined by the paragraph settings.

You can check the style’s definition in your compile format by double-clicking the format and choosing Duplicate & Edit, then choosing Styles on the left. If the style you’re using for the quotes is among the styles listed, select it and click into the sample text, then choose Format > Paragraph > Keep With Next > On to add that setting to the style. If the style is not listed, you can either add it here via the “+” button in the upper right and then apply the Keep With Next setting, or you can add Keep With Next to the style’s settings in the project. Listing the style here means that you can change the formatting the style uses when compiled with this format and it will apply for any project that uses a style of that name and type when compiling with this format; if the style is not listed, it will use the formatting set in the project.

To add Keep With Next to the style’s setting in the project, you can select the text in your document that has KWN applied and use that to redefine the style from the editor via Format > Style > Redefine Style from Selection.

Just to be clear here, we’re talking about two different settings: Keep With Next, which specifies that a paragraph should stick with the following paragraph, and Avoid Widows & Orphans, which attempts to avoid splitting a single paragraph such that only the first or last line is alone on a page. In the example given with the reference, this is the expected behaviour: when separated as its own paragraph using the carriage return, it is not considered an orphan. When you use the line break, it is still part of the same paragraph.

So are you saying that unless a paragraph style contains the Keep with next setting itself, then simply selecting a paragraph (with or without a style that does not have Keep with next set), and then choosing Keep with next won’t work?

No. Rather, “Keep with Next” and general widow and orphan control are two different tasks.

Keep with Next is what you would use to keep an image and its caption together, or a glossary term and its definition. Widow and orphan control is intended to keep any paragraph, regardless of formatting, from leaving a single line at the end or beginning of a page. The first is a characteristic of the paragraph itself, the second is a function of the page layout tool.


It will work if you are compiling the main text using the editor formatting (not overriding it in compile) and also not overriding that style (without Keep With Next set). If the formatting is being overridden by the compile format, then the paragraph will not retain the KWN formatting from the editor.

Widows and orphans control, as Katherine said, is a page layout setting independent of the formatting settings and overrides.